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  1. #1
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    Lindsay.

    FYI Broncos: Lindsey needs a bump in pay. He may still be the best back we have.

  2. #2
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    Perhaps, Von is willing to take a reduced salary to help pay for Lindsay?

  3. #3
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    He doesn't "need" anything. He is still under contract for this year and will be a restricted FA the year after. If the team wants, he will be here until 2022 and for cheap. The team may feel like doing him a favor, financially, but there is no real incentive for them to give an arbitrary raise to the backup RB.

  4. #4
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    He put pen to paper signing his contract and the Broncos don't have to do anything this year, per Lindsay. He is being a pro and a man who's going to honor his contract. But, it would be good to see him get a bump for his value the last couple of years.

  5. #5
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    Obviously this is the trouble with football contracts compared to other sports. With all money guaranteed in baseball and basketball these convos don't happen. Lindsey has outplayed his contract, has a very short shelf life, and plays a position that doesn't pay well. Does he have every right to desire more money and hold out? Absolutely. Does he have every right to go to the top payer once he is a FA? Absolutely. Is he a bad person for wanting to get paid while he can in his career? Nope.

    Everyone on here who says he signed a contract and he needs to honor it never says that when a player gets cut prematurely for poor performance. Not paying or extending players like Lindsey will in turn not provide "happy thoughts" about the organization by the player. I think Wolfe and Harris are examples of people who out-performed team friendly contracts that aren't necessarily fond of the broncos now.

    Do these attitudes mean they are selfish or greedy, not at all, because if they sucked after signing their deals, Mr. Elway would've cut their behinds quicker than a snap of the fingers. Football players easily have the worst union and CBA of all 3 major sports

  6. #6
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    We have done this dance already, nothing at all needs to happen with Lindsay. The Broncos pretty much own Lindsay for the foreseeable future, and Linsday has no leverage to play any games to change that. But he wont hold out or create waves anyway, it makes no sense from his side to do it, and anyone worried about it shouldn't be, Lindsay is here as long as the Broncos decide. Here is a brief summary of the other 2 threads this has been discussed:

    Argument 1: You can re-sign undrafted rookies after 2 seasons.

    Response: It's never happened though, and no agent has any reference point what so ever to approach team management to argue their client should be extended. An agent wont even try because they know if demands are not giving into, they have no leverage, what are they going to ?

    Argument 2: Someone will poach Lindsay if we just tender him next off-season.

    Response: No one is giving up a first or second round pick for Lindsay plus a contract. The last running back RFA tendered and signed elsewhere was when Gilislee went from the Bills to the Patriots, and he was tendered at his original round, a late round pick. This doesn't happen.

    Argument 3: The team will revolt, show the locker room you take care of your guys.

    Response: You think players will care that Lindsay isn't getting extended after 2 seasons in the league when they have to wait 4 ? No other player is going to be annoyed that Lindsay has to wait just like them, it's a non-issue.

    Argument 4: Other UDFA players wont come here if we don't take care of Lindsay.

    Response: A guy who just went undrafted is going to jump at any opportunity where an NFL contract and a good roster situation is presented, think about where an undrafted guys head is at right after the draft, he is desperate and has zero leverage.

    Argument 5: Lindsay could just hold out.

    Response: Maybe Lindsay could ask his new running mate Melvin Gordon how that works out ? Maybe Lindsay has noticed that running backs have zero bargaining power in the NFL, and when they hold out into the season, it doesn't work.

    Argument 6: Just do it, take care of him, it's a nice thing to do

    Response: Teams don't care about this, it's a business. I wouldn't mind Phillip getting a small bump in pay, maybe 3 million per season, but it doesn't need to happen, and he doesn't need to be catered to. I love Phillip, but the position he plays, his value isn't that high on an open market, and on a trade market, it's even lower.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    We have done this dance already, nothing at all needs to happen with Lindsay. The Broncos pretty much own Lindsay for the foreseeable future, and Linsday has no leverage to play any games to change that. But he wont hold out or create waves anyway, it makes no sense from his side to do it, and anyone worried about it shouldn't be, Lindsay is here as long as the Broncos decide. Here is a brief summary of the other 2 threads this has been discussed:

    Argument 1: You can re-sign undrafted rookies after 2 seasons.

    Response: It's never happened though, and no agent has any reference point what so ever to approach team management to argue their client should be extended. An agent wont even try because they know if demands are not giving into, they have no leverage, what are they going to ?

    Argument 2: Someone will poach Lindsay if we just tender him next off-season.

    Response: No one is giving up a first or second round pick for Lindsay plus a contract. The last running back RFA tendered and signed elsewhere was when Gilislee went from the Bills to the Patriots, and he was tendered at his original round, a late round pick. This doesn't happen.

    Argument 3: The team will revolt, show the locker room you take care of your guys.

    Response: You think players will care that Lindsay isn't getting extended after 2 seasons in the league when they have to wait 4 ? No other player is going to be annoyed that Lindsay has to wait just like them, it's a non-issue.

    Argument 4: Other UDFA players wont come here if we don't take care of Lindsay.

    Response: A guy who just went undrafted is going to jump at any opportunity where an NFL contract and a good roster situation is presented, think about where an undrafted guys head is at right after the draft, he is desperate and has zero leverage.


    Argument 5: Lindsay could just hold out.

    Response: Maybe Lindsay could ask his new running mate Melvin Gordon how that works out ? Maybe Lindsay has noticed that running backs have zero bargaining power in the NFL, and when they hold out into the season, it doesn't work.

    Argument 6: Just do it, take care of him, it's a nice thing to do

    Response: Teams don't care about this, it's a business. I wouldn't mind Phillip getting a small bump in pay, maybe 3 million per season, but it doesn't need to happen, and he doesn't need to be catered to. I love Phillip, but the position he plays, his value isn't that high on an open market, and on a trade market, it's even lower.
    Only correct if an UDFA is only offered a contract by a single team. There are a log lot of UDFAs that have multiple teams offer them contracts, including Lindsay.

    Reason to do it: Lindsay is the best feel good story on the Broncos and is probably the most popular Bronco in Denver and is important in the community.

    Reason to do it: Smart business owners understand the concept of Internal Marketing, which is treating employees farily with respect. Not every benefit is tangible or can have a dollar value placed on it.

    Reason to do it: Elway said he would. There's no excuse for not keeping your word.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by lvbronx View Post
    Only correct if an UDFA is only offered a contract by a single team. There are a log lot of UDFAs that have multiple teams offer them contracts, including Lindsay.

    Reason to do it: Lindsay is the best feel good story on the Broncos and is probably the most popular Bronco in Denver and is important in the community.

    Reason to do it: Smart business owners understand the concept of Internal Marketing, which is treating employees farily with respect. Not every benefit is tangible or can have a dollar value placed on it.

    Reason to do it: Elway said he would. There's no excuse for not keeping your word.
    That is where the little bit of extra money comes in, like we have recently done to secure a few guys like Rypien, and where the aforementioned playing time potential comes into the equation. If you have a young guy who has more than one contract offer and the money is the same, but the chance to play is higher, therefore securing them a job long-term, they are not worried about Lindsay not getting taken care of after 2 years. This situation in all the years of the current system has NEVER not even ONCE been an issue, and it wont be here.

    Smart business owners understand leverage and market value, that is where the Broncos currently have EVERY advantage in this situation if it was to turn sour, which it wont. Also, the treatment of employees is obviously huge in keeping high morale and motivation in a workplace, and that would be an issue, IF, drafted players, which is majority of NFL players, didn't themselves have to wait 4 years to see that second contract. They will not feel Lindsay is hard done by, again nullifying the argument.

    Your reasons to do it don't really counter any argument against doing it. Don't get me wrong, I would be fine with it happening, but I push back at the idea of it being an issue, and the countless made up fan reasons to why it could become one hold no weight.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    That is where the little bit of extra money comes in, like we have recently done to secure a few guys like Rypien, and where the aforementioned playing time potential comes into the equation. If you have a young guy who has more than one contract offer and the money is the same, but the chance to play is higher, therefore securing them a job long-term, they are not worried about Lindsay not getting taken care of after 2 years. This situation in all the years of the current system has NEVER not even ONCE been an issue, and it wont be here.

    Smart business owners understand leverage and market value, that is where the Broncos currently have EVERY advantage in this situation if it was to turn sour, which it wont. Also, the treatment of employees is obviously huge in keeping high morale and motivation in a workplace, and that would be an issue, IF, drafted players, which is majority of NFL players, didn't themselves have to wait 4 years to see that second contract. They will not feel Lindsay is hard done by, again nullifying the argument.

    Your reasons to do it don't really counter any argument against doing it. Don't get me wrong, I would be fine with it happening, but I push back at the idea of it being an issue, and the countless made up fan reasons to why it could become one hold no weight.
    Smart business owners list both pros and cons of their options, not just the ones that fit an agenda or to win an argument.

    Elway saying he would does counter every argument you made. And I'm pretty sure he will. He's just waiting for the dust to clear and see how much cap/money is left because Elway realizes he does have leverage and it isn't a priority now, but it makes sound business sense then. And this is one example where a smart business owner weighs both Pros and Cons and comes up with the best solution considering ALL the variables.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by lvbronx View Post
    Only correct if an UDFA is only offered a contract by a single team. There are a log lot of UDFAs that have multiple teams offer them contracts, including Lindsay.

    Reason to do it: Lindsay is the best feel good story on the Broncos and is probably the most popular Bronco in Denver and is important in the community.

    Reason to do it: Smart business owners understand the concept of Internal Marketing, which is treating employees farily with respect. Not every benefit is tangible or can have a dollar value placed on it.

    Reason to do it: Elway said he would. There's no excuse for not keeping your word.
    Those players aren't signing based on what happens with Lindsay, they're signing with teams where they'll get an honest chance to A. Make the roster. B. Get playing time

    The Broncos have a long history of giving UDFA players a chance not only to make the team, but to get good playing time in their first year.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Those players aren't signing based on what happens with Lindsay, they're signing with teams where they'll get an honest chance to A. Make the roster. B. Get playing time

    The Broncos have a long history of giving UDFA players a chance not only to make the team, but to get good playing time in their first year.
    Are you saying every UDFA is the same and has the exact same motivations? I don't believe that for a second. As I posted above about "smart businesses" (a classic "plea to authority" logical fallacy) most smart people will have a list of pros and cons.

    Lindsay has outperformed his contract on a historical level doing things no other UDFA in NFL history has done like rushing for 1000 yards in his first two seasons and being named to the Pro Bowl as the first O UDFA rookie to ever do so. Sometimes there are exceptions to "standard operating procedure" and this is one.

    Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should.

    PS. Lindsay signed with the Broncos because his mom recommended he stay home. Anyone that knows Taz knows he felt he'd make any team that signed him. Confidence was never his problem.
    Last edited by lvbronx; 04-01-2020 at 07:36 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by lvbronx View Post
    Only correct if an UDFA is only offered a contract by a single team. There are a log lot of UDFAs that have multiple teams offer them contracts, including Lindsay.

    Reason to do it: Lindsay is the best feel good story on the Broncos and is probably the most popular Bronco in Denver and is important in the community.

    Reason to do it: Smart business owners understand the concept of Internal Marketing, which is treating employees farily with respect. Not every benefit is tangible or can have a dollar value placed on it.

    Reason to do it: Elway said he would. There's no excuse for not keeping your word.
    This is true, Lindsey is a very important cog in the machine.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    We have done this dance already, nothing at all needs to happen with Lindsay. The Broncos pretty much own Lindsay for the foreseeable future, and Linsday has no leverage to play any games to change that. But he wont hold out or create waves anyway, it makes no sense from his side to do it, and anyone worried about it shouldn't be, Lindsay is here as long as the Broncos decide. Here is a brief summary of the other 2 threads this has been discussed:

    Argument 1: You can re-sign undrafted rookies after 2 seasons.

    Response: It's never happened though, and no agent has any reference point what so ever to approach team management to argue their client should be extended. An agent wont even try because they know if demands are not giving into, they have no leverage, what are they going to ?

    Argument 2: Someone will poach Lindsay if we just tender him next off-season.

    Response: No one is giving up a first or second round pick for Lindsay plus a contract. The last running back RFA tendered and signed elsewhere was when Gilislee went from the Bills to the Patriots, and he was tendered at his original round, a late round pick. This doesn't happen.

    Argument 3: The team will revolt, show the locker room you take care of your guys.

    Response: You think players will care that Lindsay isn't getting extended after 2 seasons in the league when they have to wait 4 ? No other player is going to be annoyed that Lindsay has to wait just like them, it's a non-issue.

    Argument 4: Other UDFA players wont come here if we don't take care of Lindsay.

    Response: A guy who just went undrafted is going to jump at any opportunity where an NFL contract and a good roster situation is presented, think about where an undrafted guys head is at right after the draft, he is desperate and has zero leverage.

    Argument 5: Lindsay could just hold out.

    Response: Maybe Lindsay could ask his new running mate Melvin Gordon how that works out ? Maybe Lindsay has noticed that running backs have zero bargaining power in the NFL, and when they hold out into the season, it doesn't work.

    Argument 6: Just do it, take care of him, it's a nice thing to do

    Response: Teams don't care about this, it's a business. I wouldn't mind Phillip getting a small bump in pay, maybe 3 million per season, but it doesn't need to happen, and he doesn't need to be catered to. I love Phillip, but the position he plays, his value isn't that high on an open market, and on a trade market, it's even lower.
    Just to piggy back on your post, he CAN'T do number 5. Under the new CBA a player that misses day 1 of training camp (without permission from the team) loses his year of service time, which means if Lindsay did hold out he would end up as an Exclusive Right Free Agent next year. Which means a third year of league minimum pay.

    For those thinking he could report and then leave, the CBA has a provision for that as well, if a player misses day 1 of camp or misses 5 days of camp (if they report and then leave) the player loses the year of service time automatically.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Just to piggy back on your post, he CAN'T do number 5. Under the new CBA a player that misses day 1 of training camp (without permission from the team) loses his year of service time, which means if Lindsay did hold out he would end up as an Exclusive Right Free Agent next year. Which means a third year of league minimum pay.

    For those thinking he could report and then leave, the CBA has a provision for that as well, if a player misses day 1 of camp or misses 5 days of camp (if they report and then leave) the player loses the year of service time automatically.
    Did not know that, thanks for the information. And a little more leverage for the Broncos. The Broncos own Lindsay until they decide otherwise.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Just to piggy back on your post, he CAN'T do number 5. Under the new CBA a player that misses day 1 of training camp (without permission from the team) loses his year of service time, which means if Lindsay did hold out he would end up as an Exclusive Right Free Agent next year. Which means a third year of league minimum pay.

    For those thinking he could report and then leave, the CBA has a provision for that as well, if a player misses day 1 of camp or misses 5 days of camp (if they report and then leave) the player loses the year of service time automatically.
    That does't give the team the leverage you think it does. If a player misses the first day of camp, or 5 days of camp, now there's no reason for them to give in. Their year of service is gone, as you wrote, automatically. So either the team gives them a new deal or they don't play, because I promise you, no player is going to play one year of his contract twice. At that point, the team has nothing left to hold over the player.
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