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Thread: Lindsay.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    Good news regarding Philip Lindsay
    Earlier in the week Dmac reported that Philip Lindsay was dissatisfied with his contract in Denver and the end result may have resulted in a trade.

    According to Brandon Stokely and Mike Klis those rumors are false and I can testify by that I heard Stokely himself on the radio say that Mike McCarthy did in fact call John Elway the moment Melvin Gordon was signed.

    Elway supposedly responded by sayingtrading Philip Lindsay at this time is not whats best for the Denver Broncos at this time!

    So like the meme says, “y’all can rest easy” Philip Lindsay is not going anywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Z View Post
    Stokely said it was Mike McCarthy, not lindsays agent. Perhaps it was a mistake but I put it out there exactly the way Stokley put it.

    Yeah I’m really going to find a link for a radio quote. You want it, YOU go find it!
    To be clear, Stokley did not say Mike McCarthy called John Elway. The meme with the reference to Coach Mike McCarthy has not been verified.

    Stokley referenced Lindsay’s agent Mike McCartney speaking with John Elway. Your post did not put out exactly what Stokley said.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Just to piggy back on your post, he CAN'T do number 5. Under the new CBA a player that misses day 1 of training camp (without permission from the team) loses his year of service time, which means if Lindsay did hold out he would end up as an Exclusive Right Free Agent next year. Which means a third year of league minimum pay.

    For those thinking he could report and then leave, the CBA has a provision for that as well, if a player misses day 1 of camp or misses 5 days of camp (if they report and then leave) the player loses the year of service time automatically.
    That does't give the team the leverage you think it does. If a player misses the first day of camp, or 5 days of camp, now there's no reason for them to give in. Their year of service is gone, as you wrote, automatically. So either the team gives them a new deal or they don't play, because I promise you, no player is going to play one year of his contract twice. At that point, the team has nothing left to hold over the player.
    All it takes to win is doing whatever it takes to win: COMMITMENT

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    We have done this dance already, nothing at all needs to happen with Lindsay. The Broncos pretty much own Lindsay for the foreseeable future, and Linsday has no leverage to play any games to change that. But he wont hold out or create waves anyway, it makes no sense from his side to do it, and anyone worried about it shouldn't be, Lindsay is here as long as the Broncos decide. Here is a brief summary of the other 2 threads this has been discussed:

    Argument 1: You can re-sign undrafted rookies after 2 seasons.

    [B]Response: [/B]It's never happened though, and no agent has any reference point what so ever to approach team management to argue their client should be extended. An agent wont even try because they know if demands are not giving into, they have no leverage, what are they going to ?

    Argument 2: Someone will poach Lindsay if we just tender him next off-season.

    Response: No one is giving up a first or second round pick for Lindsay plus a contract. The last running back RFA tendered and signed elsewhere was when Gilislee went from the Bills to the Patriots, and he was tendered at his original round, a late round pick. This doesn't happen.

    Argument 3: The team will revolt, show the locker room you take care of your guys.

    Response: You think players will care that Lindsay isn't getting extended after 2 seasons in the league when they have to wait 4 ? No other player is going to be annoyed that Lindsay has to wait just like them, it's a non-issue.

    Argument 4: Other UDFA players wont come here if we don't take care of Lindsay.

    Response: A guy who just went undrafted is going to jump at any opportunity where an NFL contract and a good roster situation is presented, think about where an undrafted guys head is at right after the draft, he is desperate and has zero leverage.

    Argument 5: Lindsay could just hold out.

    Response: Maybe Lindsay could ask his new running mate Melvin Gordon how that works out ? Maybe Lindsay has noticed that running backs have zero bargaining power in the NFL, and when they hold out into the season, it doesn't work.

    Argument 6: Just do it, take care of him, it's a nice thing to do

    Response: Teams don't care about this, it's a business. I wouldn't mind Phillip getting a small bump in pay, maybe 3 million per season, but it doesn't need to happen, and he doesn't need to be catered to. I love Phillip, but the position he plays, his value isn't that high on an open market, and on a trade market, it's even lower.
    You mention this a lot, about it never happening before. 1) Nothing has ever happened before until it does. 2) You know what else has never happened before? An undrafted free agent rushing for 1,000+ yards in each of his first two seasons.

    Your points are valid, and they don't have to give him a new contract. They don't even need to. But doing so would be value added, as Lindsay CLEARLY responds to outside stimulus. He has the proven mental attitude that his gratitude would only serve to make him play as hard as he possibly can, and make him WANT to do it for the Broncos. If they slight him, which not rewarding him for outplaying his rookie deal by miles, would most certainly do, he's going to give all that motivation and effort to another team. Is saving 8 to 10 million over 4 years really worth that? Unfortunately for all NFL owners, it's not just a numbers game. You can't simply rely on having the leverage to give you the best results. Sometimes you have to recognize the intangibles in people and be willing to pay to keep those intangibles on your team.
    All it takes to win is doing whatever it takes to win: COMMITMENT

  4. #34
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    I’d be for giving Lindsay a raise after two seasons if the rest of the players agree that if they have a down year they will take a pay cut!

    The truth is Iif Lindsay continues to play well regardless of his carries he will eventually get paid.

    Chris Harris jr. got a pay raise, but that was after 8 seasons not 2, and the team was trying to extend him for 3 seasons.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58Miller View Post
    I’d be for giving Lindsay a raise after two seasons if the rest of the players agree that if they have a down year they will take a pay cut!

    The truth is Iif Lindsay continues to play well regardless of his carries he will eventually get paid.

    Chris Harris jr. got a pay raise, but that was after 8 seasons not 2, and the team was trying to extend him for 3 seasons.
    Before the end of his 4th season, NOT HIS 8th, CHJ was signed to a 4 year, $42.5 million extension. AND he received a $2.18 million tender in his 3rd year. Soooooo, facts matter. CB's make more than RB's and that's a fact. But don't say Harris played for peanuts for 8 years when he got a top 10 contract before he had finished his 4th year.
    All it takes to win is doing whatever it takes to win: COMMITMENT

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Those players aren't signing based on what happens with Lindsay, they're signing with teams where they'll get an honest chance to A. Make the roster. B. Get playing time

    The Broncos have a long history of giving UDFA players a chance not only to make the team, but to get good playing time in their first year.
    Are you saying every UDFA is the same and has the exact same motivations? I don't believe that for a second. As I posted above about "smart businesses" (a classic "plea to authority" logical fallacy) most smart people will have a list of pros and cons.

    Lindsay has outperformed his contract on a historical level doing things no other UDFA in NFL history has done like rushing for 1000 yards in his first two seasons and being named to the Pro Bowl as the first O UDFA rookie to ever do so. Sometimes there are exceptions to "standard operating procedure" and this is one.

    Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should.

    PS. Lindsay signed with the Broncos because his mom recommended he stay home. Anyone that knows Taz knows he felt he'd make any team that signed him. Confidence was never his problem.
    Last edited by lvbronx; 04-01-2020 at 07:36 AM.

  7. #37
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    Wrong player to take a hard line “ we own you” business stance IMO. His performance over the past two seasons scream for increased compensation.

    Try to re-negotiate a multi year deal that works for both. I have no clue if that is a couple million or 5-6m per year. I’ll let the team and agent find that sweet spot. But at the very least working out a “bonus” should be done.

    Also the idea of performance based contracts. Getting some refunds on the James and Callahan contracts seems warranted. Hell, give Lindsey the $2.5m wasted on T. Riddick last season.

  8. #38
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    Melvin is going to be the lead back this season. If Lindsay can keep pace, pay the guy next off season.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco51 View Post
    Melvin is going to be the lead back this season. If Lindsay can keep pace, pay the guy next off season.
    This is the logical outcome. I honestly believe he's a better big play option. If the line has improved (I believe it is), he's going to have a bunch of nice runs. I think he makes his money next year.
    All it takes to win is doing whatever it takes to win: COMMITMENT

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    That makes sense if they're completely sold on him. The fact they went out and signed Gordon says they're not completely sold on him. He's a great story, but why pay more if you don't see him being the answer for several years going forward?
    I wouldn’t go that far. I think if they weren’t sold on Lindsay they would have gave Gordon a longer deal. As it stands now both will hit FA at the same time. I don’t think they buy Lindsay as a workhorse and it’s hard at that size. I think Gordon had more to do with pushing Freeman out. There were rumors at the combine that we were interested in RBs. I think the FO saw an opportunity for a proven player that can contribute immediately and jumped on it vs hoping a 3rd-7th round RB could push Freeman out this year. I see it as a win now move.

    I do expect Lindsay to get a new contract either during the season or in the offseason. It sucks for him though, due to his age, size, and position he will never get compensated as much as you would expect from being a starting/pro bowl caliber RB. He very well could retire never hitting the 10 mil mark. It’s still a lot of money but I can’t blame him for trying to push the envelope now.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco51 View Post
    Melvin is going to be the lead back this season. If Lindsay can keep pace, pay the guy next off season.
    Maybe. I say slap him with a 2nd round tender. That way we either keep him for another cheap year or someone sends us a decent pick.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    Before the end of his 4th season, NOT HIS 8th, CHJ was signed to a 4 year, $42.5 million extension. AND he received a $2.18 million tender in his 3rd year. Soooooo, facts matter. CB's make more than RB's and that's a fact. But don't say Harris played for peanuts for 8 years when he got a top 10 contract before he had finished his 4th year.
    I agree facts do matter, and the fact is I never said Harris played for peanuts for 8 years. If that’s the way you took it, I did a bad job explaining what I meant, apologies!

    I brought Harris because he got a pay raise despite being under contract in his 9th year. I believe this pay raise is why some think Lindsay should get one this year.

    Harris first 4 seasons:

    Year. Salary
    2011 $375,000 - Rookie year
    2012 $465,000 - year 2
    2013 $555,000 - year 3 ( same as Lindsay right now
    2014 $2,187,000 - He was tendered after his third season

    I agree facts do matter, and the fact is I never said Harris played for peanuts for 8 years.
    Last edited by 58Miller; 04-01-2020 at 10:21 AM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58Miller View Post
    I agree facts do matter, and the fact is I never said Harris played for peanuts for 8 years.

    I brought Harris because he got a pay raise despite being under contract in his 9th year. I believe this pay raise is why some think Lindsay should get one this year.

    Harris first 4 seasons:

    Year. Salary
    2011 $375,000 - Rookie year
    2012 $465,000 - year 2
    2013 $555,000 - year 3 ( same as Lindsay right now
    2014 $2,187,000 - He was tendered after his third season

    I agree facts do matter, and the fact is I never said Harris played for peanuts for 8 years.
    You said he didn't get a raise until his 8th year. "Chris Harris jr. got a pay raise, but that was after 8 seasons not 2". He got a raise year 4, then a sizeable raise years 5-8.
    All it takes to win is doing whatever it takes to win: COMMITMENT

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    You said he didn't get a raise until his 8th year. "Chris Harris jr. got a pay raise, but that was after 8 seasons not 2". He got a raise year 4, then a sizeable raise years 5-8.
    Your right that is definitely how it sounds after I read it back, but what I meant was players under contract don’t just get a bump or raise in salary like Harris did last year.

    I believe Elway gave it to him due to the 8 years of service and team friendly deal he took.

    My main point is Lindsay is not going to get a bump in pay, like Harris did last year.

    Thank you for calling me out, helps me realize I need to read my posts and not press send so quick.
    Last edited by 58Miller; 04-01-2020 at 11:16 AM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    That does't give the team the leverage you think it does. If a player misses the first day of camp, or 5 days of camp, now there's no reason for them to give in. Their year of service is gone, as you wrote, automatically. So either the team gives them a new deal or they don't play, because I promise you, no player is going to play one year of his contract twice. At that point, the team has nothing left to hold over the player.
    It actually gives them a massive amount of leverage, because that's what he needs to get to free agency. If he misses either scenario, be now becomes a Exclusive Rights Free Agent, which means a third straight year of league minimum. And 5 years before he becomes a UFA.

    What leverage would Lindsay have? If he decides he doesn't want to play under that contract, too bad, your career is essentially over because the Broncos would hold his rights going forward. And his current contract would just toll, which means if he sits out the entire 2020 season, he no longer becomes an ERFA, instead he still owes the Broncos that year under his contract.

    So yes the team has a massive amount of leverage. They hold all of the leverage in this situation.

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