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Thread: Lindsay.

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by FR Tim View Post
    Isn’t Lindsey “on the cheap” already? Even if they worked out deal without getting ridiculous. I would be seeing if he would accept a 2yr/ $5-6 m deal. Gives him a much deserved pay raise for the same amount of time the control his contract as of today.

    Instead of questioning replacing Lindsey, I question whether that drafted rookie (like Akers or several others) would have been a better choice then Gordon. And his salary spent on another position. But what is done is done.

    Find a way to pay Lindsey and let him and Gordon earn the playing time on the field. Both will be needed over a long season.

    IMO they should not be trading Lindsey. Use his proven talents as a complimentary piece with Gordon.
    Yes. According to spotrac, he will be paid $750,000 this year and is an RFA next. There is no doubt in my mind his contract issues will be addressed. Phillip Lindsay has no cause for worry about being a Bronco because of Melvin Gordon. The guy who needs to worry is Royce Freeman, especially if Denver drafts a RB (e.g., A.J. Dillon)
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by WYBRONCO View Post
    That might be fair value but I wouldn't do it. There is no guarantee you find a guy that productive in this draft. There definitely are some guys who could match that production but I think you would have to take one in rd 2 or 3.
    He averaged 4.5 ypc but how much of that truely had any impact on the score board until Drew Lock came in?

    Of course heís a talented guy but he had little to no impact on a losing team. Meaning, he didnít tip the scale. He wasnít the X-factor like many are making him out to be!

    Iím sure Elway could find fair value in a trade but Iíd like to see this one two punch with Lindsay and Gordon!

    Gordon of course being the starter!
    Last edited by Sam_Z; 04-03-2020 at 09:39 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
    this is good news taking i love lindsey and i have one his jersey. i hope he stays a bronco along time. plus his explosiveness adds to this offensive.
    You own his jersey, yet you can't spell his name. Yeesh. It's not like his name is Houshmonawazadeh, it's only SEVEN letters. Pet peeve of mine, felt good to get it off my chest, thanks for reading . . . . .

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Yes. According to spotrac, he will be paid $750,000 this year and is an RFA next. There is no doubt in my mind his contract issues will be addressed. Phillip Lindsay has no cause for worry about being a Bronco because of Melvin Gordon. The guy who needs to worry is Royce Freeman, especially if Denver drafts a RB (e.g., A.J. Dillon)
    I donít know that I see Denver drafting anyone. Freeman is cheap and would be a good #3.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Yes. According to spotrac, he will be paid $750,000 this year and is an RFA next. There is no doubt in my mind his contract issues will be addressed. Phillip Lindsay has no cause for worry about being a Bronco because of Melvin Gordon. The guy who needs to worry is Royce Freeman, especially if Denver drafts a RB (e.g., A.J. Dillon)
    Something tells me Royce gets shipped for a 5th/6th round pick. He'd be a good fit in a couple of places, and he's legit pass catching threat out of the backfield.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    It actually gives them a massive amount of leverage, because that's what he needs to get to free agency. If he misses either scenario, be now becomes a Exclusive Rights Free Agent, which means a third straight year of league minimum. And 5 years before he becomes a UFA.

    What leverage would Lindsay have? If he decides he doesn't want to play under that contract, too bad, your career is essentially over because the Broncos would hold his rights going forward. And his current contract would just toll, which means if he sits out the entire 2020 season, he no longer becomes an ERFA, instead he still owes the Broncos that year under his contract.

    So yes the team has a massive amount of leverage. They hold all of the leverage in this situation.
    Yeah, if they have no interest in the player actually playing. No player is going to repeat years of service. None, not one. So if a player DOES miss the first day of training camp, the team either has to work out a new deal or play without that player. I'll bet you CPs every week for a year that not a single player gets back to back same years of service as you're saying they will be forced to if they miss the 1st day of camp or 5 total days of camp.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    I am assuming you're as aware of his intangibles as I am. And No, I don't think he changes anything, other than his willingness to sign here long term when the Broncos get to the point they HAVE to offer long term or let him walk. There is no scenario where we can force him to stay a Bronco past 30 years old. The longest we can keep him, with tags and tenders, would be 3 more years. Worst case scenario for him, barring significant injuries, is that he's looking for a new team at 28 years old. Good news for him is the next 2 years shouldn't put a lot of wear on his legs because he'll have Gordon eating up a lot of snaps.

    As far as fan fiction goes, it depends on what you're talking about. Can the Broncos get 3 years out of Lindsay without giving him a contract? Of course. People who argue he'll sit out don't understand him, I think. Should the Broncos want more than 3 more years with Lindsay? I personally think they should. We toss around RB numbers as if they are predictors of what he's capable of. I understand they provide likely indicators, but he's already smashed expectations. It is reasonable to believe/hope, however you want to phrase it, that he exists outside the normal running back limitations as far as production and longevity go. Saying that to say this, the Broncos SHOULD want Lindsay on the roster far beyond the 2022 season. If they use their leverage to keep him without extending him, I honestly believe that won't happen. He might be a great guy with a big heart, but he has a big memory too, and the Broncos already have strike 1 (not drafting him).

    So if the only goal is 3 more years of PL in the backfield, you're correct, nothing to worry about. If the goal is to get all his good snaps in a Denver uniform, well, he needs a new contract. Seems pretty simple.
    What are they though ? I am asking, and asking how they would change if he wasn't taken care of now, or even next off-season ? As stated, you assume that by not taking care of him he somehow becomes a negative persona in the locker room losing these intangibles ? I don't think that happens, and saying we have 1 strike against our name is silly, no other team drafted him either, putting strikes against all their names too ? If that is how he looks at it as well, he is an idiot. What gives us points for then ? Bringing him in and giving him opportunity to flourish ? Playing time ? Allowing him to see the field ? No other team done that, Denver did.

    Also that is where our disconnect is, you are considering Lindsay, a running back, as a 6-8 year long-term option, I am not. I think in 3 years as trends suggest, Lindsay has probably had his best years and on the decline. That is why I would be fine with all these situations playing out like I listed, and letting go of him. I also don't think Phillip is as good as you think he is, or as good as the league considers him to be. Phillip is good, but he isn't that bell cow, take over the game type back you lean on for 60 minutes, in my opinion. Again, another reason why if 2 or 3 more years are all we get from Lindsay, I am fine with that.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    Yeah, if they have no interest in the player actually playing. No player is going to repeat years of service. None, not one. So if a player DOES miss the first day of training camp, the team either has to work out a new deal or play without that player. I'll bet you CPs every week for a year that not a single player gets back to back same years of service as you're saying they will be forced to if they miss the 1st day of camp or 5 total days of camp.
    The year of service has zero to do with the team, player and that contract. The service year is a CBA negotiated clause between the NFL and NFLPA, and it's an automatic because it's in the CBA. Even if a team wanted to give him a year of service they couldn't because it would be a violation of the CBA.

    Another new aspect of that is fines for players with valid contracts (from he second contract on) holding out. Often teams would forgive the daily fines once the player did report. But the fines are now bigger and they're mandatory in the CBA. So again even if a team wanted to forgive the fines a player accumulated, they can't because it would violate the CBA.

    https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...r-to-hold-out/

    The third part is the part that speaks to service time years.

    I mean we can make the bet if you want, but since it's a part of the CBA, you've already lost before any player even holds out.

    EDIT: And to be clear the year of service time is different than years on his contract. If he showed up September 1st to play he would still burn the year off his contract and reach free agency next offseason, but he'd be an Exclusive Rights Free Agent, not a Restricted Free Agent, because of the loss of service time. If he sat out the entire year that's when his contract would just toll and he would still owe a year on his contract.
    Last edited by Butler By'Note; 04-03-2020 at 02:01 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    What are they though ? I am asking, and asking how they would change if he wasn't taken care of now, or even next off-season ? As stated, you assume that by not taking care of him he somehow becomes a negative persona in the locker room losing these intangibles ? I don't think that happens, and saying we have 1 strike against our name is silly, no other team drafted him either, putting strikes against all their names too ? If that is how he looks at it as well, he is an idiot. What gives us points for then ? Bringing him in and giving him opportunity to flourish ? Playing time ? Allowing him to see the field ? No other team done that, Denver did.

    Also that is where our disconnect is, you are considering Lindsay, a running back, as a 6-8 year long-term option, I am not. I think in 3 years as trends suggest, Lindsay has probably had his best years and on the decline. That is why I would be fine with all these situations playing out like I listed, and letting go of him. I also don't think Phillip is as good as you think he is, or as good as the league considers him to be. Phillip is good, but he isn't that bell cow, take over the game type back you lean on for 60 minutes, in my opinion. Again, another reason why if 2 or 3 more years are all we get from Lindsay, I am fine with that.
    Ummm, who stated that? I have never said Lindsay will become a problem. I'm saying he will take his talents, AND HIS INTANGIBLES, with him when he leaves. You've already said you don't care if we have him beyond 3 years, and as you said, that's where we part ways. He's a leader, he's inspired, he inspires others, AND he has a tremendous amount of skill. You think he's going to experience the same problems most other running backs do with age, and I disagree. If you had been asked if he was worth a 5 year, 10 million dollar contract before we signed him as a college free agent, you would have absolutely said no. You would have been wrong. You want to apply league norms to a guy who keeps defying them. Fair enough. I just disagree.

    As for strikes, I addressed this in another comment somewhere on this post. Yes, he held the Broncos to a different standard than the other 31 teams. You can say that makes him an idiot, it doesn't change the fact that he felt that way, and wasn't shy about saying it. He was a hometown guy, who the Broncos had greater access to than any other team, and they drafted David Williams and didn't draft him. David Williams had less yards in his whole career than Lindsay had as a senior. So again, call him an idiot if you want, it's how he feels.
    Last edited by Letswinplz77; 04-07-2020 at 08:21 AM.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    The year of service has zero to do with the team, player and that contract. The service year is a CBA negotiated clause between the NFL and NFLPA, and it's an automatic because it's in the CBA. Even if a team wanted to give him a year of service they couldn't because it would be a violation of the CBA.

    Another new aspect of that is fines for players with valid contracts (from he second contract on) holding out. Often teams would forgive the daily fines once the player did report. But the fines are now bigger and they're mandatory in the CBA. So again even if a team wanted to forgive the fines a player accumulated, they can't because it would violate the CBA.

    https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...r-to-hold-out/

    The third part is the part that speaks to service time years.

    I mean we can make the bet if you want, but since it's a part of the CBA, you've already lost before any player even holds out.

    EDIT: And to be clear the year of service time is different than years on his contract. If he showed up September 1st to play he would still burn the year off his contract and reach free agency next offseason, but he'd be an Exclusive Rights Free Agent, not a Restricted Free Agent, because of the loss of service time. If he sat out the entire year that's when his contract would just toll and he would still owe a year on his contract.
    I wasn't aware that these were mandatory consequences and the team couldn't "forgive" them in the language of a new contract. So yes, you are 100% correct. Any player who misses the prescribed days of training camp is probably going to force a trade. While they might still owe another year of service regardless of where they're playing, they might as well get more money and new contract while they are at it.
    All it takes to win is doing whatever it takes to win: COMMITMENT

  11. #71
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    I hope that Lindsey does not become disgruntled and any of the negative issues that would come with it.

    Trading him away and drafting another RB is an insane strategy. No guarantees that a coveted drafted RB can have the same impact let alone improved. Just look t draft picks... Williams, Booker, etc.

    There seems to be a continuing trend with the Broncos roster. A lot of lose one, add one scenarios. With the net result being a roster with arguably equal or slightly better impact.

    Roster has to ďimproveĒ not remain static. Lindsey as a quality duo with Gordon should be the goal. If that takes renegotiating with him to reward him for his contributions to the team, so be it.

    As mentioned earlier in this thread, give him the $2.5m they wasted on Riddick. Lindsey earned it!

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    I wasn't aware that these were mandatory consequences and the team couldn't "forgive" them in the language of a new contract. So yes, you are 100% correct. Any player who misses the prescribed days of training camp is probably going to force a trade. While they might still owe another year of service regardless of where they're playing, they might as well get more money and new contract while they are at it.
    Not sure I see that here. If the ultimate goal is a bigger contract, then the easiest way to get that is by playing this year out, assuming he doesn't get one after the draft. Finish year 3 and you either get an RFA tender at several million per year, or you become a free agent and get a bigger contract.

    I consider an original round tender here the same as being a free agent, because with no compensation attached, you're free to shop yourself and teams are more likely to give you a contract that won't be matched.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Not sure I see that here. If the ultimate goal is a bigger contract, then the easiest way to get that is by playing this year out, assuming he doesn't get one after the draft. Finish year 3 and you either get an RFA tender at several million per year, or you become a free agent and get a bigger contract.

    I consider an original round tender here the same as being a free agent, because with no compensation attached, you're free to shop yourself and teams are more likely to give you a contract that won't be matched.
    If Iím understanding this correctly, if the Broncos tender Lindsay after this season and donít attach additional compensation, heís essentially a free agent? In other words he can accept a better offer from another team at that point?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    Ummm, who stated that? I have never said Lindsay will become a problem. I'm saying he will take his talents, AND HIS INTANGIBLES, with him when he leaves. You've already said you don't care if we have him beyond 3 years, and as you said, that's where we part ways. He's a leader, he's inspired, he inspires others, AND he has a tremendous amount of skill. You think he's going to experience the same problems most other running backs do with age, and I disagree. If you had been asked if he was worth a 5 year, 10 million dollar contract before we signed him as a college free agent, you would have absolutely said no. You would have been wrong. You want to apply league norms to a guy who keeps defying them. Fair enough. I just disagree.

    As for strikes, I addressed this in another comment somewhere on this post. Yes, he held the Broncos to a different standard than the other 31 teams. You can say that makes him an idiot, it doesn't change the fact that he felt that way, and wasn't shy about saying it. He was a hometown guy, who the Broncos had greater access to than any other team, and they drafted David Williams and didn't draft him. David Williams had less yards in his whole career than Lindsay had as a senior. So again, call him an idiot if you want, it's how he feels.
    Defying the league norms ? Yeah, technically, for an undrafted free agent player, but that is novel story line which no NFL team is going to care about. Obviously Lindsay is producing quality statistics, and he is comparable with other good running backs in the league, but he isn't doing anything dramatically crazy which would allow him to come to the bargaining table and say look, "I am out producing other backs, I am different to X, Y, and Z".

    Well yes, if Lindsay is going to think that way in a business situation, he is in fact an idiot. And if he approaches negotations in that way, then he needs some better advice. Again though, this is fan fiction people are thinking up in their heads. There is no evidence of any actions leading to any of this, any evidence of these situations brewing, it is 100% fan fiction at this point. And, if it leads to anything like a rare few think, then the Broncos sit pretty with how in control of the situation they are. Even more in control then first thought after the facts Butler provided about your theory of holding out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    If Iím understanding this correctly, if the Broncos tender Lindsay after this season and donít attach additional compensation, heís essentially a free agent? In other words he can accept a better offer from another team at that point?
    Kind of, but the Broncos still have all the control. Lindsay would be free to negotiate with another team and agree to a offer sheet, but that team would have to give up whatever pick Lindsay was tendered at. So, Lindsay would be tendered at a first or second round level, meaning the team would have to give up a contract, plus give up a draft pick. The Broncos would then also have the right to match the contract anyway, so as the "restricted free agent" label suggests, Lindsay is restricted on what he can do.

    Say the Broncos don't want to match the offer, then yeah, Lindsay leaves and we get a high round draft pick. My thinking is that no team would be willing to give up a contract and a high round pick for a running back, so I think that is why Lindsay best play out this season and hope for an extension from the Broncos. In reality, the Broncos could say to Lindsay, test the restricted free agent market, and when no one offers anything, they just make Lindsay sign the tender, and have him for another year. Then he would become unrestricted if Denver didn't slap a franchise tag on him, which I don't think you use that on a player of Lindsays calibar and position.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post

    Kind of, but the Broncos still have all the control. Lindsay would be free to negotiate with another team and agree to a offer sheet, but that team would have to give up whatever pick Lindsay was tendered at. So, Lindsay would be tendered at a first or second round level, meaning the team would have to give up a contract, plus give up a draft pick. The Broncos would then also have the right to match the contract anyway, so as the "restricted free agent" label suggests, Lindsay is restricted on what he can do.

    Say the Broncos don't want to match the offer, then yeah, Lindsay leaves and we get a high round draft pick. My thinking is that no team would be willing to give up a contract and a high round pick for a running back, so I think that is why Lindsay best play out this season and hope for an extension from the Broncos. In reality, the Broncos could say to Lindsay, test the restricted free agent market, and when no one offers anything, they just make Lindsay sign the tender, and have him for another year. Then he would become unrestricted if Denver didn't slap a franchise tag on him, which I don't think you use that on a player of Lindsays calibar and position.
    Thanks for the explanation. If Elway makes Lindsay an offer after the draft, I would think it would be in his best interest to accept. I guess Lindsay could test the market but as you said it seems unlikely a team would give up a high draft pick. Maybe if the tender was a lower pick, but why would Elway give up the leverage? If a team happened to give up a good pick, it would be a good deal for the Broncos. The challenge for Lindsay (running backs in general), is the short career. Beyond 3-4 seasons itís unusual to see guys continue playing at a high level. If Lindsay happens to have a breakout year with another 1000 yards plus a sharp increase in receiving yards, maybe heíll be in a better position - but thatís unlikely unless Gordon is injured.

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