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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by lvbronx View Post
    Except Ruggs' toughness comments were about him willing to play through injury and not come off the field. Keep laughing.

    However he does high point the ball pretty well and as Allbright (former NFL scout...are you?) said his weakness is blocking out against press, yes that's a weakness however he makes up for it with speed.

    What I find it hilarious is that you compare him to John Ross. There's no comparison except for speed. He's also playing with two other WRs that will be drafted in the first round, so it's likely his production isn't as high.

    The only difference between Ruggs and Hill is that Ruggs only beats people on the field.
    The quote said he plays bigger than he is and that he thinks he is 6/4 220 or 200.. I read the mental toughness comment, and even wrote the I love the fact that he doesn't get injured.

    But mental toughness, for a receiver, also includes fighting off the line, making the tough catch in traffic, tough blocks. Hines Ward has it... Maybe Ruggs will develop it. He certainly is on the field all of the time but the other attributes might need some work. Playing bigger than he is.... insinuates he has some qualities of a bigger receiver. I have not seen any of it. Now granted, he doesn't have as many catches as the other receivers to see as wide of range of skills.

    I did not say he was John Ross. I said every year, we find the fastest guy and people identify ALL of the reasons that he is not just a speed guy. They do this to justify why he will not be another speed guy flop... With Ross there were different reasons identified. As with the others that I mentioned. I never said any of them were identical to Ruggs. Nor did I mean to compare his specific attributes to them, only to point out that many times the fastest receivers get OVER drafted and don't perform on the field. It is because the NFL is blinded by speed and it is very understandable. It is easy to fall in love with the speed.

    I think Ruggs affect will be very much like Will Fuller; which is a very positive thing for the offense... I would not feel too disappointed if we got him.

    As far as his production being less because he played with 2 first round guys, it is funny it didn't stop either of them from getting way more catches and a lot more years.... and making a much bigger impact on the offense. We can make all of the excuses for Ruggs that we want, but the bottom line is that he didn't perform in college any more than a very average receiver.

    If that the ONLY factor in drafting a player? Of course not, but it is negligent to ignore it and excuse it away.

    I have never been a scout... nor will I ever. I freely admit I am a hack...

    But for fun, why don't you go read his draft profile on NFL.COM and see how closely it aligns with my statements. Just for fun.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
    I don't feel either ruggs or lamb are polished route runners. Both will have to improve in that area. Which is normal. Most wr out of college need to run better routes in the nfl. That's why you see the 1 to 2 year time for them to grow and hit there potential. I think they both have the skills to be very good route runners if they take the time and effort to do it practice it and perfect it. Which like I said most wr need to do from college to pros. Cause open in the nfl is not open in college. Also every one is bigger faster and has better technique then in college. Either way I think we should have this conversation in a few years and see what they look like. I bet they both end up being studs in this league
    This is very well said.

    Ruggs used his speed to create the differences between him the CB not necessarily strong route running. But he certainly can improve. Lamb used his tenacity, strength, and athleticism to dominate at the college level. I think he definitely has room to grow in route running. I think he does some tricky things in his routes which is very effective. He doesn't seem to have great strengths running a traditional route tree. My opinion of course.

    That being said, both should improve given time in the NFL. I tend to think Lamb is stronger right now with a better chance to grow in route running. I think Ruggs will make a significant impact, almost immediately, with his speed. It might be a longer road until he improves the rest of his receiver skills.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDbroncos02 View Post
    Brad Kelly's channel on YouTube has some All-22 cut-ups of the top receivers in this draft, which gives a better look into how they run their routes and try to leverage the cornerback and the defense overall. And to fit your description of a high-football skill, open space "feel" type of receiver, I think CeeDee Lamb fits that bill perfectly. With Jerry Jeudy right behind Lamb and then Justin Jefferson a distant 3rd (in that regard).

    In terms of your evaluation of our personnel and coming off of 3 losing seasons in a row, which areas of the roster have the most pressing needs in your opinion?

    I think the so-called luxury of "drafting a pure pass catcher (first) two years in a row" argument being used as a case against drafting a WR in the 1st round does not capture the big picture of our roster. At the end of the day, each draft class is different from year-to-year. Opportunity cost matters. This is the most talent-rich WR class since 2014. That is the real general consensus in the scouting community and among team insiders, not merely a product of the YouTube highlights hype machine. I'm all for team-building in the trenches and filling up the other holes in our roster (notably at CB and C) of course. But at #15, we have the opportunity to draft a WR that has shown translatable ability to excel in the pros.

    Jerry Jeudy - Every successful NFL receiver needs to be able to run good routes or have a good OC be able to scheme them open. Although route running is a skill that can be taught, the truly great route runners (Jerry Rice, AB) stand head and shoulders above the rest of the receivers in the league. Jeudy has that special gift of having BOTH extremely-quick feet and sheer technical ability to be one of the best route runners in the NFL right away.

    CeeDee Lamb - They key to having longevity in the NFL as a WR lies in the mental. Lamb has the same intangibles that DeAndre Hopkins, Emmanuel Sanders, and Larry Fitzgerald all have. You talk about a receiver having that "dog" in them-- or the mental and physical toughness to make both contested catches and lay the wood while blocking-- Lamb has that. Productivity matters. What stands out to me about Lamb is the fact that he put up numbers in the OU offense with three different QBs, all of whom have different play styles. When one WR can be the reliable target for Baker Mayfield, Kyler Murray, and Jalen Hurts, that tells me more about their tireless work ethic to develop the right timing and chemistry with their QB.

    I admit, Henry Ruggs III is a bit more of a projection than the other two WRs I just mentioned. He has the tools to be a better WR in the NFL than he was at Alabama, IMO. An OC with a vertical offense like Pat Shurmur will tailor to Ruggs' strengths. Ruggs already has two traits that cannot be taught, elite speed and great hands. He is not good at beating press man coverage, just like most "speed" receivers. If Shurmur is smart, he will use Ruggs the same way Andy Reid uses Tyreek Hill-- a lot of motion and exploiting mismatches.
    Offensive line, tackle, center, and even some depth, an injury is bound to happen. Cornerback, 1 outside starter, and a slot defender, Bouye also has been bad for 2 years in a row, he is no guarantee. Interior of the defense, an athletic linebacker and run stuffing defensive tackle are needed. I rate all of these players being more impactful to our potential climbing out of this hole than a wide reciever. We have had quality wide receivers over the last several years, but still been a losing football team. Time to add some foundation pieces and worry about the skill positions next year.

    Its a talent rich class and I understand what you are saying with the opportunity cost, but when opportunity costs become a consideration, that is when FOMO in a market runs wild, and guys get pushed up the board. I look at the other side of this opportunity because of how I value the impact a wide reciever would have on this team compared to other positions. You have how many receivers being discussed as top 15 picks, 3 ? 4 ? That is 3 or 4 guys at other positions who are going to be pushed down to us at 15, I like that opportunity a lot more, and that is what I would consider true value due to hype around another positional group.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Offensive line, tackle, center, and even some depth, an injury is bound to happen. Cornerback, 1 outside starter, and a slot defender, Bouye also has been bad for 2 years in a row, he is no guarantee. Interior of the defense, an athletic linebacker and run stuffing defensive tackle are needed. I rate all of these players being more impactful to our potential climbing out of this hole than a wide reciever. We have had quality wide receivers over the last several years, but still been a losing football team. Time to add some foundation pieces and worry about the skill positions next year.

    Its a talent rich class and I understand what you are saying with the opportunity cost, but when opportunity costs become a consideration, that is when FOMO in a market runs wild, and guys get pushed up the board. I look at the other side of this opportunity because of how I value the impact a wide reciever would have on this team compared to other positions. You have how many receivers being discussed as top 15 picks, 3 ? 4 ? That is 3 or 4 guys at other positions who are going to be pushed down to us at 15, I like that opportunity a lot more, and that is what I would consider true value due to hype around another positional group.
    I understand your arguments just disagree with some of your basic premises.

    Broncos being “ a losing team” had little to do with the WR talent. It was more about mediocre (at best) QB play, coaching instability and Elway’s poor choices in finding olineman. How many Olinemen brought in and failed. And that is not including drafting Bolles.

    Agree with that this year, this team has multiple holes to fill. Including a dynamic playmaker at WR. How they fill them will be debated even after the draft and final free agent moves are made. Disagreements spot priority is inevitable.

    Doesn’t mean your “foundation piece first” strategy is any stronger then a “WR first, then foundation pieces” approach.

    JMO but I think the single most important improvement this team can make is dynamic WR to change how defenses scheme the Broncos. And the potential of scoring more points gives them the best chance of winning.

    That talent is not found in the mid to later rounds. It is found this draft in the first or maybe if extremely lucky the second round. And it certainly is not left in free agency.

    I’m hoping for one of the top 3 , maybe add Jefferson. Beyond that is just a complimentary player. Not a dynamic starter that pushes and maybe passes Sutton as primary WR.

  5. #35
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    One thing to keep in mind is that we have FIVE picks in the first 3 rounds. We can debate all day about how to best use our draft capital.

    Here’s my bottom-line. If one of the top 3 WRs falls to us at #15, I’m running to the podium with their name on the card. I strongly believe all of the 4 top OTs are gone by then. The only other Top 15 player I think could be available where we pick is Javon Kinlaw. Considering the state of our DL, I don’t think we need to address it in the 1st round.

    This leaves us with 4 more picks. The 2nd round is talent-rich in two places of need for us, CB and C. In the 3rd round, there’s talent at LB, OT, DL, and C. Plenty of opportunities to pick those “foundational” pieces in the early rounds where there is legitimate starting talent. So why not take a blue-chip WR prospect at #15 and fill out the rest of our roster appropriately with the other picks we have? There’s no way I’m taking Josh Jones, Austin Jackson, CJ Henderson, Kristian Fulton, Patrick Queen, Kenneth Murray, or any DL (besides Kinlaw) over Jeudy/Lamb/Ruggs. We bang the table for BPA all the time, and I think we are in a position where we truly can take BPA and where it so happens to be at a position of need.

  6. #36
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    Can we fast forward three weeks....these conversations are getting rough

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeeter01 View Post
    Can we fast forward three weeks....these conversations are getting rough
    Well said!!! And hilarious. Best comment I read all day

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by FR Tim View Post
    JMO but I think the single most important improvement this team can make is dynamic WR to change how defenses scheme the Broncos. And the potential of scoring more points gives them the best chance of winning.

    That talent is not found in the mid to later rounds. It is found this draft in the first or maybe if extremely lucky the second round. And it certainly is not left in free agency.
    Tyreek Hill was a third round choice, for many reasons.

    There are many dynamic playmakers, in the NFL, that were not early first round picks.

    Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders came in the same draft and not early. Desean Jackson was a second rounder ( very close to where Hamler is projected). Hill and Hardeman were not drafted where Watkins was and who are the dynamic playmakers? Godwin went in the third. Deebo has some skills and came in the second.

    I agree we should invest in a dynamic playmaker but I am not convinced that we are better off selecting Ruggs at 15, than trading down and pick up another second. IMO it is reasonable that a combo of Raegor/Pittman in the second or Claypool /Hamler, could provide better impact than Ruggs at #15.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by myoung View Post
    Tyreek Hill was a third round choice, for many reasons.

    There are many dynamic playmakers, in the NFL, that were not early first round picks.

    Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders came in the same draft and not early. Desean Jackson was a second rounder ( very close to where Hamler is projected). Hill and Hardeman were not drafted where Watkins was and who are the dynamic playmakers? Godwin went in the third. Deebo has some skills and came in the second.

    I agree we should invest in a dynamic playmaker but I am not convinced that we are better off selecting Ruggs at 15, than trading down and pick up another second. IMO it is reasonable that a combo of Raegor/Pittman in the second or Claypool /Hamler, could provide better impact than Ruggs at #15.
    You may be right.

    For this draft, how I feel it falls and what I think this team needs ... I simply prefer one of the top 3 WRS to be available at #15.

    And I honestly think it is not likely they will be.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by FR Tim View Post
    You may be right.

    For this draft, how I feel it falls and what I think this team needs ... I simply prefer one of the top 3 WRS to be available at #15.

    And I honestly think it is not likely they will be.
    The only thing consistent about the draft every year is that I am mostly wrong!

    I certainly understand that perspective and I like those guys also. I would not be disappointed if we go WR early

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDbroncos02 View Post
    Brad Kelly's channel on YouTube has some All-22 cut-ups of the top receivers in this draft, which gives a better look into how they run their routes and try to leverage the cornerback and the defense overall. And to fit your description of a high-football skill, open space "feel" type of receiver, I think CeeDee Lamb fits that bill perfectly. With Jerry Jeudy right behind Lamb and then Justin Jefferson a distant 3rd (in that regard).

    In terms of your evaluation of our personnel and coming off of 3 losing seasons in a row, which areas of the roster have the most pressing needs in your opinion?

    I think the so-called luxury of "drafting a pure pass catcher (first) two years in a row" argument being used as a case against drafting a WR in the 1st round does not capture the big picture of our roster. At the end of the day, each draft class is different from year-to-year. Opportunity cost matters. This is the most talent-rich WR class since 2014. That is the real general consensus in the scouting community and among team insiders, not merely a product of the YouTube highlights hype machine. I'm all for team-building in the trenches and filling up the other holes in our roster (notably at CB and C) of course. But at #15, we have the opportunity to draft a WR that has shown translatable ability to excel in the pros.

    Jerry Jeudy - Every successful NFL receiver needs to be able to run good routes or have a good OC be able to scheme them open. Although route running is a skill that can be taught, the truly great route runners (Jerry Rice, AB) stand head and shoulders above the rest of the receivers in the league. Jeudy has that special gift of having BOTH extremely-quick feet and sheer technical ability to be one of the best route runners in the NFL right away.

    CeeDee Lamb - They key to having longevity in the NFL as a WR lies in the mental. Lamb has the same intangibles that DeAndre Hopkins, Emmanuel Sanders, and Larry Fitzgerald all have. You talk about a receiver having that "dog" in them-- or the mental and physical toughness to make both contested catches and lay the wood while blocking-- Lamb has that. Productivity matters. What stands out to me about Lamb is the fact that he put up numbers in the OU offense with three different QBs, all of whom have different play styles. When one WR can be the reliable target for Baker Mayfield, Kyler Murray, and Jalen Hurts, that tells me more about their tireless work ethic to develop the right timing and chemistry with their QB.

    I admit, Henry Ruggs III is a bit more of a projection than the other two WRs I just mentioned. He has the tools to be a better WR in the NFL than he was at Alabama, IMO. An OC with a vertical offense like Pat Shurmur will tailor to Ruggs' strengths. Ruggs already has two traits that cannot be taught, elite speed and great hands. He is not good at beating press man coverage, just like most "speed" receivers. If Shurmur is smart, he will use Ruggs the same way Andy Reid uses Tyreek Hill-- a lot of motion and exploiting mismatches.
    Just because this is a talent rich class with receivers doesn’t mean using #15 at that position is the best move for the roster. Fans like the idea of having the new “shiny object” on the roster. The idea of having the next Tyreek Hill is exciting. However it’s easy to overlook what’s behind guys like Hill, Patrick Mahomes creating plays with arm talent to deliver the ball. An offensive line with better than average ability to protect the quarterback.

    It’s much more difficult to find NFL ready tackles. I would argue vastly more difficult than finding a talented receiver. The Broncos roster has little, if any talented depth at tackle. In fact, the starting tackles are suspect at best. Bolles has not proved he can play consistently without penalties and/or protect the quarterback. Every season fans say things like, “He played better at the end of last season, surely he’ll be better next season”. Only to see him cost the offense with penalties and pressure on the quarterback. Lock did well at recognizing Bolles giving up ground and extending plays with his legs. However, that’s not always going to work against top tier defenses. Ja’Wuan James hasn’t proved he can play more than a handful of snaps. When healthy he’s a starting caliber tackle, but the odds of him making it through a season are extremely low.

    I won’t even go into the other positions, like CB, ILB or depth at Safety.

    Take the best WR from this class - whatever one you prefer. It won’t matter if you can’t consistently protect Lock.

    Now, anyone can make a case for a tackle in a later round. The fact is that the Broncos offensive line has struggled for what, 5-6 seasons? At what point do fans stop hoping guys like Bolles will play well?

    I love the debates on wide receivers as much as anyone, but would prefer drafting a tackle who can protect Lock for the next 10 seasons.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    I love the debates on wide receivers as much as anyone, but would prefer drafting a tackle who can protect Lock for the next 10 seasons.
    Fair points made. So let’s say OT1 goes to NYG/AZ, OT2 goes to AZ/CLE, OT3 goes to CLE/NYJ, and OT4 goes to NYJ/TB. Do you want to reach for OT5 Josh Jones at #15 over one of the “shiny WRs”? Because Miami after us is definitely in play for Jones as well.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by FR Tim View Post
    JMO but I think the single most important improvement this team can make is dynamic WR to change how defenses scheme the Broncos. And the potential of scoring more points gives them the best chance of winning.
    I think this gets lost in the discussion on whether we should take one of the OTs or WRs. Personally I’d prefer Wills or Thomas if they’re there. But I can understand why we would take a WR there, particularly a guy with Ruggs skill set. While Ruggs is raw you can’t teach what he has and what he has will drastically influence what the defense does one way or the other.

    At the minimum he’s getting a S over the top so at a minimum he’s taking 2 defenders attention. More than likely those mid level defenders are also going to have to be at least generally aware of if he’s coming through on a crossing route so more than likely he’s getting 3 defenders to key in on him. That opens up things for other players just because Ruggs is fast. So even if he only puts up 600 yards as a rookie he could very well open up 600 more yards for everyone else.

    But not only that, do you blitz a QB who has a WR like Ruggs on the edge? That’s dangerous because it likely leaves a single high safety. That’s a big play waiting to happen, so that one single safety probably shades over to his side which leaves Sutton one on one on the other side whereas this past year he’d get that safety treatment. So do you play cover 2? Whether it’s cover 2 man or zone, it’ll pose an issue for whoever has to cover Fant running up the middle of the field because it unlocks that much more room for him to operate. Cover 3 poses similar issues as Cover 1. Cover 4 opens up things underneath for everyone who are all capable of making plays in space. If you opt to get pressure by blitzing a lot of people you have to hope Lock wont get the ball out. Off coverage would be a TD, press coverage could still be a TD. The only thing to do right now would be to aggressively press him while still keeping that S over the top but once he learns to beat the press or you scheme him out of getting pressed then it is no longer viable option.

    Cliff notes - drafting Ruggs (or any of the top WRs) can inadvertently help the oline by dictating to the defense what they have to do.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDbroncos02 View Post
    Fair points made. So let’s say OT1 goes to NYG/AZ, OT2 goes to AZ/CLE, OT3 goes to CLE/NYJ, and OT4 goes to NYJ/TB. Do you want to reach for OT5 Josh Jones at #15 over one of the “shiny WRs”? Because Miami after us is definitely in play for Jones as well.
    Nope I would trade back in the first and take Jones or Cleveland. Others will put Jackson in the mix but I am not a fan.

    Try to get another second round pick. Take the shiny object in round 2 and maybe another one in round 3. Or maybe take 2 of them in round 2 if it is BPA.

    We can also use a CB, C/G, Safety, DL, etc...

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by myoung View Post
    Nope I would trade back in the first and take Jones or Cleveland. Others will put Jackson in the mix but I am not a fan.

    Try to get another second round pick. Take the shiny object in round 2 and maybe another one in round 3. Or maybe take 2 of them in round 2 if it is BPA.

    We can also use a CB, C/G, Safety, DL, etc...
    I could get on board with that. I think Jones has the most potential to overtake Bolles and start at LT during his rookie year. Do I think any of them will be better than Bolles right now? Probably not. But Jones, Cleveland, and even Jackson are all ideal developmental OTs and Munchak could do wonders with them. I would rather trade back and take an OT than sit at #15 and reach for one.
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