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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    Could be the case. I just find it interesting there were more than a few people arguing against Ruggs because he was only a guy with a fast 40 (which is false). Now Hamler is the guy because heís fast. There are some situations where his speed can help the offense. Just not sure it was the best use of the 2nd round pick, especially after getting Jeudy. Heís on the roster now so hopefully weíll get high returns for the pick.
    If Hamler is as effective as (a healthy) Will Fuller then heíll be more than worth the pick.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Couldn't find any stats on it, but has he had any issues catching punts or kicks ? Will be a good chance to see him with the ball in his hands with open space.
    Good question, I donít know. Iím solely going off a few highlights I saw. He clearly has another gear most football players donít have. Iíd be shocked if he wasnít the fastest guy on the team.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoooJohnson View Post
    If Hamler is as effective as (a healthy) Will Fuller then heíll be more than worth the pick.
    A healthy Will Fuller and DeAndre Hopkins combined for 207 yards vs KC. Texans lost 51-31. If thatís effective it didnít help them win in the playoffs.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    A healthy Will Fuller and DeAndre Hopkins combined for 207 yards vs KC. Texans lost 51-31. If thatís effective it didnít help them win in the playoffs.
    We have a better d then texans

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Always going to happen. Read the thread about double dipping at wide receiver and the back flipping of opinions as soon as it happened. But I didn't realise, I didn't consider, etc. etc. Fans will be fans, and Hamler will be interesting to watch this season. I see a guy who can eat up space quickly and get over the top, but a guy who struggles to track the ball or make plays consistently when catches are contested.

    I think Hamler is easily the most questionable pick in the draft in terms of value at the pick. He is special in space, but scheming guys open into space in the NFL isn't as easy as people make it sound. How often do fans see a fast guy on the back end of the roster, and say something like, "we should get the ball in his hands early and let him go to work" ? It is easier said than done, and those fast elusive guys with bad hands usually don't change. Maybe he just needs a tweak or two to improve, but the natural hand-eye coordination that goes into being a great catcher is something which is usually a natural instinct/talent type thing.
    I donít believe itís a hand eye coordination issue with Hamler, he tracks the ball over his shoulder very well and that requires a ton of coordination as itís probably the hardest pass for a receiver to catch. However itís a different skill set than any other pass that isnít over your shoulder. Hamler tries to trap the ball with his body in almost every other situation. Sanders did it a lot and rarely dropped passes so it isnít impossible to do. I believe itís something he started to protect the ball from getting knocked out of his hands even though that logic is backwards as defenders get an extra half second or so to reach in and break it up. I do hope he works on catching the ball away from his body though as it can make a huge difference in how much YAC he can get on those short passes.

    My real issue with the pick is that he doesnít have a great fit on the offense. Jeudy and Hamler are both better suited for the slot right now. Jeudy can survive on the outside but heís going to be a lot more productive in the slot. Hamler canít survive on the outside, teams can press him there and leverage him where they want him to go. In the slot itís so much harder to press a WR effectively because they have so much more room to operate with. They almost have to play out of stack, bunch, and 4/5 wide formations if they want to maximize their skill sets. Actually that wouldnít be too bad because Hamler can also be a threat out of the backfield and can probably take a handful of runs if need be.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    If we get football this season weíll see how the Broncos secondary matches up with Ruggs.

    Letís hope Hamler was worth the pick.
    Exactly. We just have to wait and see. We can just as easily say "If we get football this season weíll see how the Raiders secondary matches up with Hamler".

    And I do hope Hamler was worth the pick. I actually hope they all are. But I like what we did a lot.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Yeah, opportunity cost, I agree with that. And yeah, every time Hamler makes a play I expect to be ridiculed at how hard I was against it, especially on draft night. I think he offers some uniqueness to the offense, and offers some instant impact. But that doesn't mean he necessarily was a better pick than someone else who was there as well.
    Personally, I think it would be downright silly for people to ridicule you (unless it's just some playful jabs) for your "opinion". That's the nature of being a fan. We all have opinions, sometimes very strong opinions. But that's all they are at this point. Opinions. Some of our opinions will be proven right, while some will be proven wrong.

    As for our draft class, I don't spend too much time (and probably don't have enough knowledge) getting into who is a value pick or not. I look at the draft in total, and I like what we did for the most part. If we like both Cush AND Hamler, does it REALLY matter which was taken at 46 and which was taken at 83? If we only had 2 or 3 picks in the draft, then I'd be much more concerned about getting the right value for the pick.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    Could be the case. I just find it interesting there were more than a few people arguing against Ruggs because he was only a guy with a fast 40 (which is false). Now Hamler is the guy because heís fast. There are some situations where his speed can help the offense. Just not sure it was the best use of the 2nd round pick, especially after getting Jeudy. Heís on the roster now so hopefully weíll get high returns for the pick.
    I will freely admit I was one of those that was critical of Ruggs. I am also a Hamler fan, although I am not really sure I like the idea of going WR 1-2 and not getting a OT. I would have preferred Cleveland at that pick. For the record, I would have been a Ruggs fan as a second round pick. I just don't think Ruggs has any potential as a WR1 in the NFL. He might just be a 3 or 4 like he was at Alabama. Hamler will likely just be a 3 but we didn't pay as much as we would have had to for Ruggs. Hamler should also be a dynamic punt return man which I would not have expected from Ruggs.

    I also will mention that I never said that Ruggs was JUST speed, but I did argue that his production did not match the value. He was very average at Alabama for two years in a row. I know we argue that he had 3 other first round picks, but Smith and Jeudy found a way to catch 1200 yards. Ruggs was just average. Ruggs appears to have great hands and he plays hurt. I think he has some very positive attributes. I just didn't want him at 15 because I think his ceiling is a WR2 and his floor is Derius Hayward Bey (NFL.com comparison not mine).

    I think context matters. In the several discussions I took part it, Ruggs was always presented as the top WR on our board. He was not suggested as a second round pick. I think Ruggs would have been a steal in the 2nd. Personally I like Hamler in the second better than I like Ruggs in the first. Both will take the top off the D and Ruggs does some things Hamler doesn't and vice versa.

    I still stick by my original analysis. Ruggs is faster in straight line speed. Hamler is also very fast, but he also has small space juice. He has wiggle and small space quickness that I have not seen in Ruggs. It is the reason that Waddle returned kicks instead of Ruggs. He had better quickness. Hamler has that quickness but not as much size, as good hands, and not quite the top speed (although close).

    Of course Tyreek Hills has small space quickness and the best top speed. Which is what makes him so special.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by cirehawk View Post
    Personally, I think it would be downright silly for people to ridicule you (unless it's just some playful jabs) for your "opinion". That's the nature of being a fan. We all have opinions, sometimes very strong opinions. But that's all they are at this point. Opinions. Some of our opinions will be proven right, while some will be proven wrong.

    I agree with this statement. We all have opinions and sometimes they are right and sometimes wrong. We also spend quite a bit of time explaining our perspective but not understanding the full concept each person is trying to portray. It is silly to waste time ridiculing someone for an opinion that was shared, whether right, wrong, or other

    Personally I liked our draft. I have my questions but overall I am pretty happy. I do understand why some would be frustrated.

  10. #160
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    In the "double dip WR" thread I said I would be mad and I was. Definitely wanted Jaylon Johnson or Kristian Fulton in the 2nd round and it was funny to hear Elway and Fangio specifically say that cornerback was their #1 priority for Round 3. Now that the draft is over, Elway's philosophy is abundantly clear. Get Lock some weapons.

    Going off of Elway's specific approach (disregarding my armchair GM opinions), I would say that our FO knocked it out of the park with the players we selected.

    I have written thousands and thousands of words on these boards about Jerry Jeudy. Here's my bottom-line. Jeudy, the 2018 Biletnikoff Award winner, has dominated both outside and in the slot and is easily the most complete receiver to enter the draft since Amari Cooper in 2015. At 21, he is not without his flaws-- but the hyperbole is legitimate. Nitpicking Jeudy's advanced, polished game at this point is just wringing out the "fun" in scouting a skill position like WR. I posted this video in the Jeudy thread, but here it is again and I highly recommend you guys watch it.

    After getting the most gifted route runner in college football from the last five years, Elway continued his mission of getting Lock some more weapons. One must also consider that our new OC Pat Shurmur most likely identified some guys he liked that would fit his scheme. With a red-zone threat in Sutton and our new route-running maestro in Jeudy, the next logical step is to add the home-run threat to our receiving corps. This was a deep WR class with incredible talent at the top, so with speedsters like Ruggs and Reagor gone... the fastest weapon available at #46 was K.J. Hamler. For an idea of how I imagine a vertical weapon like Hamler would fit into Shurmur's offense, I point you guys to Darius Slayton. In addition to being a deep threat, I could see Hamler being used like Tyreek Hill-- lots of motion, manufactured touches, and crossing routes (a frequently-used route in Shurmur's playbook). I initally lambasted the Hamler pick, especially since we never took wide receivers with our first two picks before. Hamler, however, is a tremendous talent in his own right.

    Here's my quote on Hamler from the CeeDee Lamb vs. Henry Ruggs thread.
    Hamler does not quite have the exceptional long speed that Reagor has, but his short-area quickness is elite. If Jerry Jeudy is the most agile route runner in this class, I give Hamler the honor of being the most agile receiver with the ball in open space. A poor man's Tyreek Hill if you will. Hamler has video game-like quickness that is seen both in his route running and RAC ability. Hamler is an underrated route runner with arguably the best stop-and-go athleticism and sudden breaks in this class. One glaring issue that I see with Hamler is his tendency to catch balls into his body instead of extending his hands for the reception. I am not relying on him in contested situations whatsoever. I seldom saw him high point the ball in traffic. At 5'9", 178 lbs., Hamler is small and does not play bigger than his size. He struggles against more physical coverage, but he is otherwise one of the better separators in the draft. If Reagor makes defenses respect his deep speed, Hamler makes defenses respect him underneath in the short-intermediate game where he takes ankles like Allen Iverson whether he has the ball or not. Hamler did not run at the Combine, but his game speed indicates him being in the high 4.3 to low 4.4 range.

    KJ Hamler: 16.9% drop rate. 36.4% contested catch rate.

    Both receivers should not be counted to become WR1 for any offense. That's good for us, considering we already have Sutton. I think it comes down to fit and what type of player you covet beyond the speed. Because when it comes to the "burners" in this class-- Henry Ruggs III is the fastest and the best all-around in terms of skill set. So when it boils down between Reagor and Hamler, here is how I see it. If you want a Christian Kirk-type, home run threat, go with Reagor. If you want an electric, Dante Hall-lite playmaker, go with Hamler.
    Continuing the "Get Lock some weapons" theme, Elway went out and got the fastest TE in the draft (4.49... next fastest was a 4.66) in Albert Okwuegbunam. "Albert O" is 6'5", 258 lbs. and had 23 career TD receptions at Mizzou. I personally believe that college chemistry is overrated in the pros, which is why I'm not going to overhype Albert O as Lock's "security blanket" in the NFL. Objectively speaking, however, Albert O is the fastest TE on our roster (slightly edging out Fant) and one of the tallest. Let's be real here, we're not going to see much better out of Heuerman, Beck, Fumagalli, and Fort. With the addition of Albert O, we get a prospect with high upside as a size/speed weapon at tight end with no pressure to produce early on (with Fant as TE1).

    In the 7th round, we added Tyrie Cleveland from UF-- a toolsy, athletic receiver in the same vein as Juwann Winfree from last year. With added competition in that WR room overall, even the depth at the position will be much better once we hit our final 53-man roster than it was last season.
    2014 Adopt-A-Bronco: #43 T.J. WARD & #38 QUINTON CARTER
    2013 Adopt-A-Bronco: #25 CHRIS HARRIS

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDbroncos02 View Post
    Continuing the "Get Lock some weapons" theme, Elway went out and got the fastest TE in the draft (4.49... next fastest was a 4.66) in Albert Okwuegbunam. "Albert O" is 6'5", 258 lbs. and had 23 career TD receptions at Mizzou. I personally believe that college chemistry is overrated in the pros, which is why I'm not going to overhype Albert O as Lock's "security blanket" in the NFL. Objectively speaking, however, Albert O is the fastest TE on our roster (slightly edging out Fant) and one of the tallest. Let's be real here, we're not going to see much better out of Heuerman, Beck, Fumagalli, and Fort. With the addition of Albert O, we get a prospect with high upside as a size/speed weapon at tight end with no pressure to produce early on (with Fant as TE1).
    The thing with the Albert O selection is, he adds another skill set to the offense.

    Everyone keeps saying Elway wanted weapons for Lock which is quite a general statement. I think looking deeper at the picks and their individual skill sets, he wanted to add different guys who could hurt you in different ways. Look at every pick, Jeudy, route running, Hamler, home run threat, Cushenberry, well-rounded center, Albert O, red zone threat and 50/50 target, and Muti, run game mauler.

    Someone said something about Shurmur not liking tight ends when he was first hired, but that is wrong. Looking back at Shurmur and the way he plays offensive football, his teams often lead the league in targets to the top 2 tight ends. Fant is good when he isn't asked to compete for 50/50 balls, or track intermediate to deep throws. Fant is great when he makes one cut, the ball is on him, and he can run after the catch with a head of steam. Albert O thrives running the seem, tracking the ball, and going up and getting it.

    My early prediction is that Albert O catches more touchdowns than Fant does this season, I think he can play a specific role for the offense in the red area, and I am sure Lock will like feeding him. I don't care much about the college connection, but I care about how big Albert O is, how strong his hands are, and how wide his catch radius is.

  12. #162
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    I look at this draft and I see:

    -3 day one starters in Jeudy, Hamler, Cushenberry
    -4 day one contributors in AOK, Ojemudia, Agim, Strnad
    -2 low-risk, massive-reward potential future starters, but now special teamers in Muti, Tuczka
    -1 fringe special teamer, developmental player in Cleveland

    I've stated before that a "good" draft should net you two starters, two contributors, and 2 special teamers. This draft exceeds those standards, even though the team didn't necessarily go 100% the direction I may have gone if I were making the picks.

    Al that said, based on my own criteria, I must give this draft an 'A'. That grade will be up for reevaluation later on as things change. If we end the year and someone like Strnad has taken over a starting role, even better. Alternatively, if players disappoint and lose playing time, the grade will suffer. Either way, I like how it looks as of now and I am beyond excited to watch this play out.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by FL BRONCO View Post
    I have no doubt Munchak will do a great job. I love having him. But regardless of how he coaches, he is not going to be out on the field. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. It is James/Bolles/Wilkinson that we are trusting to show up and be out on the field and protect Lock. Though,you giving me you trust Munchak as an answer when James/Bolles/Wilkinson was the question, kinda answers the question by itself.
    If Munch trusts them I trust them. At the end of the day, if he felt they were unable to perform then something would have been done to address the issue.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
    A healthy Will Fuller and DeAndre Hopkins combined for 207 yards vs KC. Texans lost 51-31. If thatís effective it didnít help them win in the playoffs.
    Your argument only makes sense if a second rounder would have stopped KC from scoring 51 points. I think our coaching staff would be more than okay knowing weíre scoring 31 against KC.

  15. #165
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    Hey, we beat the Texans too last year . I also would love for us to score 31 point on any of the AFC West teams. Defensively you have to be better than 32. Yes, I am fully aware of KC's track meet offense. But, to me, it becomes a defense issue if you are losing after your offense puts up 31. Turnovers can be a factor that could change my opinion but 31 points needs to get it done in almost every scenario of regulation NFL football.

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