Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 40
  1. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    15,116
    Quote Originally Posted by MHSalute View Post
    Jeury, Hamler, Fant, O, Sutton...who would ever accuse us of trying to out athlete other teams?

    Disagree on it becoming easy to shut down, never really saw that happen in 3 years. Sam Bradford did not having the vertical chops needed, but they still were dropping 30 plus points on teams. I think if you a Desean Jackson (Hammler) and a Riley (Sutton) that can pressure defenses vertically, you can expand your formations. I'm not saying it is the best O to run, but it would create a big uptick in scoring. Chip ran this with two TEs also.

    If only we had Chips O coordinator...
    I'm glad that Chip's O-coordinator was an O-Cordinator in title only. Kelly designed, installed and called that offense. But Lets compare Kelly's 4 years in the NFL to see whether teams caught on:

    2013: 2nd in total offense at 417.2 yards, 9th in passing at 256.9 yards, 1st in rushing 160.4, 4th in points 27.6, 1st in the league at 6.3 yards per play and 32nd in 26:24 in TOP

    2014: 5th in offense 396.8, 6th in passing 272.2, 9th in rushing 124.5, 3rd in points 29.6, 11th at 5.6 yards per play and 32nd in TOP 26:40

    2015: 12th in offense 364.4, 12th in passing 255.4, 14th in rushing 108.9, 13th in points 23.6, 24th in the league at 5.4 yards per play and 32nd in TOP 26:06.

    2016: 31st in offense 308.1, 32nd in passing 181.9, 11th in rushing 113.3, 27th in points 19.3, 30th at 4.9 yards per play and 32nd in TOP 26:56

    Even if we completely eliminate the 49ers year, his returns steadily diminished, particularly yards per play where he gave up almost a full yard from 2013 to 2015. Teams figured out the offense, and his NFL career ended as quickly as it began.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    15,116
    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    There is little in the game of football at the pro level that is new. Most innovations have come from the college and high school levels. Most of what is done is putting together known elements in a new synthesis. Some of the more successful pro coaches are students of football history.

    Given the nature of the rules which favor the passing attack as well as the existence of several pass heavy offensive systems, it is no wonder Elway provided Buzz with some speed at the receiver positions in the interest of scoring more points.
    But like other trends, the passing trend will phase out at some point, for the simple reason that defences are getting smaller to compete against the passing game, so eventually you'll see more teams doing what Baltimore did and getting bigger and trying to smash the smaller defences around by running the ball.

    Taking from part 1 of what you said, and knowing Bill Belichick is a student of the game like no other, I wouldn't be shocked to see him remake what an NFL offense is in the next year or two. I wouldn't be shocked to see him bring out a full triple option offense. He's always looking for an advantage, and borrowing from the past. Teams don't have much time to prepare for future opponents, and trying to go against a full triple option offense with only 1 week of practice would be tough, and give his team an advantage. I won't say it will happen, but it wouldn't shock me either.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    13,737
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    But like other trends, the passing trend will phase out at some point, for the simple reason that defences are getting smaller to compete against the passing game, so eventually you'll see more teams doing what Baltimore did and getting bigger and trying to smash the smaller defences around by running the ball.

    Taking from part 1 of what you said, and knowing Bill Belichick is a student of the game like no other, I wouldn't be shocked to see him remake what an NFL offense is in the next year or two. I wouldn't be shocked to see him bring out a full triple option offense. He's always looking for an advantage, and borrowing from the past. Teams don't have much time to prepare for future opponents, and trying to go against a full triple option offense with only 1 week of practice would be tough, and give his team an advantage. I won't say it will happen, but it wouldn't shock me either.
    I can see that. By nature a defense is reactionary.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    36,006
    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    There is little in the game of football at the pro level that is new. Most innovations have come from the college and high school levels. Most of what is done is putting together known elements in a new synthesis. Some of the more successful pro coaches are students of football history.

    Given the nature of the rules which favor the passing attack as well as the existence of several pass heavy offensive systems, it is no wonder Elway provided Buzz with some speed at the receiver positions in the interest of scoring more points.
    Hey Sam...you like Buzz don't ya??!!

    Yes, I agree....it's a QB driven league, and now that we have what appears to be our franchise QB, and some serious weapons in the backfield and receiving the ball, we look to be back as an O power. And even if not day one, this group will grow together and possibly be formidable for years to come.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    36,006
    Good discussion. My gut feeling is that, most professional leagues have a copycat nature to them. Say it's hockey, and big, tough teams are winning, then you see other teams, not all, making the shift, And then just when they think they caught up, low and behold, speed is back, or some other variation. Therefore my feelings are that, there is a copycat side to the NFL, and though KC might look like the model or maybe Baltimore to some, or even some bits of Tennessee...a team must be wise. It should define itself, what it wants to be, and become that. And if in any doubt, I like the balanced approach.

    But The Broncos have been lacking offensively. And we need to give our QB every chance at success. So I personally don't see us trying to be like KC, rather just be a good O, and a good D, simultaneously. The fact that the game has evolved on the passing side, thanks partly to the rule book, you seldom see teams that do not employ a serious passing attack. Then again, The Titans might defy that, and San Fran loved to carry the rock.

    So my topic was open for as much discussion as could be. I believe there is copycat in most sports, even The NFL. And it is ok to take a little from here or there, if it makes sense. But I love a team with an identity, and one they know how to fulfill, via roster selections, coaching strategy/design, and player understanding.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Las Manzanitas, NM
    Posts
    31,505
    Quote Originally Posted by MHSalute View Post
    Jeury, Hamler, Fant, O, Sutton...who would ever accuse us of trying to out athlete other teams?

    Disagree on it becoming easy to shut down, never really saw that happen in 3 years. Sam Bradford did not having the vertical chops needed, but they still were dropping 30 plus points on teams. I think if you a Desean Jackson (Hammler) and a Riley (Sutton) that can pressure defenses vertically, you can expand your formations. I'm not saying it is the best O to run, but it would create a big uptick in scoring. Chip ran this with two TEs also.

    If only we had Chips O coordinator...
    If this was intended to be rhetorical, I missed it. Chip Kelly's OC from Philly was Pat Shurmur, so we got him.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,986
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    But like other trends, the passing trend will phase out at some point, for the simple reason that defences are getting smaller to compete against the passing game, so eventually you'll see more teams doing what Baltimore did and getting bigger and trying to smash the smaller defences around by running the ball.

    Taking from part 1 of what you said, and knowing Bill Belichick is a student of the game like no other, I wouldn't be shocked to see him remake what an NFL offense is in the next year or two. I wouldn't be shocked to see him bring out a full triple option offense. He's always looking for an advantage, and borrowing from the past. Teams don't have much time to prepare for future opponents, and trying to go against a full triple option offense with only 1 week of practice would be tough, and give his team an advantage. I won't say it will happen, but it wouldn't shock me either.
    I think it is an interesting perspective but I disagree.

    The NFL rules are changing to protect the QB and receivers. The rules are eliminating big hits and preventing coverages from being as aggressive.

    Offenses are being encouraged to pass the ball because of the advantage. I donít believe the rules will ever change back the other direction. Not only is the game safer but scoring is more entertaining to the average fan.

    I think the Baltimore example is one of a team being creative with the player they have. We will likely see more of it but I donít believe it is because passing is becoming less important. It has more to do with using the tools they have. I think it is far more likely that Jackson gets hurt and everyone says ďI told you soĒ.

    Yes I think it is a copy cat league, it always has been teams are trying to add weapons and pay the passing positions. It is decreasing the value of the other positions. The RB position has been degraded significantly over the past decade.

    I believe there is almost zero chance that Belichick comes out with a full triple option. It doesnít match their personnel nor would he risk his key player getting blown up over and over again.

    I think it is an interesting thought, but I see the exact opposite occurring

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Las Manzanitas, NM
    Posts
    31,505
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    But like other trends, the passing trend will phase out at some point, for the simple reason that defences are getting smaller to compete against the passing game, so eventually you'll see more teams doing what Baltimore did and getting bigger and trying to smash the smaller defences around by running the ball.

    Taking from part 1 of what you said, and knowing Bill Belichick is a student of the game like no other, I wouldn't be shocked to see him remake what an NFL offense is in the next year or two. I wouldn't be shocked to see him bring out a full triple option offense. He's always looking for an advantage, and borrowing from the past. Teams don't have much time to prepare for future opponents, and trying to go against a full triple option offense with only 1 week of practice would be tough, and give his team an advantage. I won't say it will happen, but it wouldn't shock me either.
    You could be right about trends, but the rules are an obstacle to breaking it. Football history provides many run heavy offenses from which to choose without reinventing the wheel. I read a review of Coverdale and Robinson's book on Bunch written by a Wing-T HS coach who retained its rushing attack and just installed the Bunch passing attack. That's like Shanahan combining WCO passing attack with Alex Gibbs' Zone Series rushing attack.

    Vince Lombardi was once asked what he thought would happen if the Single Wing returned. He said, "It would embarrass the hell out of us." In a way the Single Wing has never left because that's where Gun comes from. So called "Wildcat" is just a watered down Single Wing package of plays for a change of pace. Spread Formation football originated at TCU with Dutch Meyer in the 1930s & 40s. He wrote a book about it called Spread Formation Football. He took the Single Wing and spread the eligible receivers. Sammy Baugh was his most famous QB who later said that Dutch taught him the three Ss of passing: short, safe and sure. Sounds like a precursor to Walsh's WCO.

    It took years before Halas was able to install the T Formation offense because there were only a few college coaches who ran it (i.e., Shaughnessy, Bible, Leahy, Faurot) It took time to get the players who understood the T which eventually replaced the Single Wing in the NFL. Bringing the Single Wing back today would be real hard because it's not used at any major colleges, so players don't know it. It's almost that extreme for Wing-T, Veer, Bone and Power I/Option I.

    Belichick used to spend his offseason with Urban Meyer studying the Spread Option. He used that knowledge to smother Denver's rushing attack in the Divisional Round of the 2011 playoffs. Denver had lost their Fullback and couldn't use their I formation plays. They were stuck with the Spread Option, so Belichick took a page from the Oklahoma 50 D, and used it to stop Denver's rushing attack. He had been victimized by the "Wildcat" before and wasn't going to let it happen again.

    There is much to be said for series oriented, run heavy offenses. They have rich history and can be effective if the O-Linemen are well coached in the execution of all the blocks. The last O like that in the NFL that I can remember was Joe Gibbs Counter Series rushing attack in Washington. You may be right that Belichick or someone like him might try the contrarian approach and reach into history to bring back something that would exploit weaknesses current defenses would face if they had to defend it. It would be interesting to say the least.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    36,006
    Quote Originally Posted by myoung View Post
    I think it is an interesting perspective but I disagree.

    The NFL rules are changing to protect the QB and receivers. The rules are eliminating big hits and preventing coverages from being as aggressive.

    Offenses are being encouraged to pass the ball because of the advantage. I don’t believe the rules will ever change back the other direction. Not only is the game safer but scoring is more entertaining to the average fan.

    I think the Baltimore example is one of a team being creative with the player they have. We will likely see more of it but I don’t believe it is because passing is becoming less important. It has more to do with using the tools they have. I think it is far more likely that Jackson gets hurt and everyone says “I told you so”.

    Yes I think it is a copy cat league, it always has been teams are trying to add weapons and pay the passing positions. It is decreasing the value of the other positions. The RB position has been degraded significantly over the past decade.

    I believe there is almost zero chance that Belichick comes out with a full triple option. It doesn’t match their personnel nor would he risk his key player getting blown up over and over again.

    I think it is an interesting thought, but I see the exact opposite occurring
    You speak my language. I think that the pendulum has swung about as far as it can go in favour of the pass game. But, league liability and ensuing sports related trends in that regard may dictate even more of same.

    But certainly, the QBs and WRs are being very much protected, which leads to more scoring, given drives are extended, and Defensive players are having to be more aware of their actions. My goodness, I see huge linemen trying to slow down or even change direction, and then cradle a QB, to avoid an infraction. Even get hurt themselves. And I really take issue with these highly athletic, well trained men having to guess where an offensive player's head is going to shift to, at the last second, when the player is already in high gear. We're talking a fraction of a second response time.

    I love what Baltimore did! They took a chance on a different type QB, and instead of changing him to fit their needs, they tried to make things easier for him to succeed. That was a really good draft pick, as it was coaching. True, he is vulnerable.

    And I do believe sports involve some degree of a copy cat mentality. There is standard stuff, there is creativity, and then there's, "lets try what made them successful", though it sometimes has a short shelf life. That's why I think a team needs to look beyond what is working for a leader, and make sure they do not go down a path that does not suit their roster, and actually misses the boat when it comes to where the future is, in that sport. And yes, I have written about the RB position, and how it seems devalued in some ways. Certainly not getting paid the same. And if you want to start anew, you typically can find a quality back beyond the first round, sometimes deep.

    Anyway...you hit a few spots that are up my alley.

    As for BB, I don't care for him, but I never underestimate him.
    Last edited by CanDB; 04-29-2020 at 04:42 AM.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,986
    The dynamic I find really interesting is the running game. Clearly the Ravens have a unique way they have approached it, which I am also a fan of. I think that style is much more difficult to copy because Lamar Jackson is a bit of a unicorn at this point. While I think Vick and Newton have provided similar situations, I think the Ravens took it to the next level. I like what they did. Personally I get nervous about a big dollar guy taking that many hits but time will tell.

    More interesting to me, is watching teams like the 49ers and Titans. Clearly the running game is not dead and critical to success. Although it is more common for teams to use multiple backs. Watching the Titans hesitate to go big with Henry is a very real indication of the perceived value of that position vs the other elements of the offense that lead to a great running game. The Titans seem as willing to invest in WRs and the 49ers have clearly felt the need to add dynamics to their offense. Even though they are primarily running teams.

    While I still believe the league is heading in a passing direction, I think a good running game is key to beating teams like the Chiefs. It is doubtful anyone is going to win a straight shootout (consistently) against the Chiefs. But with a little better D, that can slow them down a little and a running game that keeps them off the field I think they are beatable.

    Bottom line is that I don't think most QBs are Mahomes so I don't think a straight copy cat is a good solution. I think we need a real rounded team to have a shot. I think we need some sustained drives and the ability to score TDs instead of FGs.

    I am probably rambling but just some observations that I find interesting in the league right now.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,070
    I enjoy learning about the history of the game, so thanks Sam for that. It does feel like the off-season focused on KC. The rules favor passing, but the 49ers were on their way to winning the SB before Tyreek Hill pulled a rabbit out of the hat and they put the game in the hands of Garropolo. There is a lesson there.

    The pendulum has swung far in the pass direction, but one thing that’s held true is teams that can both run and pass have been successful in every era. And teams with complementary defense and offense compete well in the playoffs. We certainly have the weapons on offense. Not sure about the trenches or secondary, but we’ll see.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    910
    Denver won Super Bowls with strong defense and running the football. They lost them with poor defense and well Elway wasn't amazing in a couple of them either. New England ran the football very effectively in Super Bowl wins and Brady lost throwing for 500yds. Running the ball still makes a huge difference. It eats up time, it causes defenses to over adjust allowing play fakes, it wears them out decreasing pass rush energy.

    Of course we want to upgrade big play-making ability. With a strong run game they are even more dangerous. Bottom line and I am rambling too: We need to score more points, especially in the red zone, run the ball more effectively, and stop the opposing team's TE.
    Last edited by WYBRONCO; 04-29-2020 at 07:06 AM.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    36,006
    Quote Originally Posted by myoung View Post
    The dynamic I find really interesting is the running game. Clearly the Ravens have a unique way they have approached it, which I am also a fan of. I think that style is much more difficult to copy because Lamar Jackson is a bit of a unicorn at this point. While I think Vick and Newton have provided similar situations, I think the Ravens took it to the next level. I like what they did. Personally I get nervous about a big dollar guy taking that many hits but time will tell.

    More interesting to me, is watching teams like the 49ers and Titans. Clearly the running game is not dead and critical to success. Although it is more common for teams to use multiple backs. Watching the Titans hesitate to go big with Henry is a very real indication of the perceived value of that position vs the other elements of the offense that lead to a great running game. The Titans seem as willing to invest in WRs and the 49ers have clearly felt the need to add dynamics to their offense. Even though they are primarily running teams.

    While I still believe the league is heading in a passing direction, I think a good running game is key to beating teams like the Chiefs. It is doubtful anyone is going to win a straight shootout (consistently) against the Chiefs. But with a little better D, that can slow them down a little and a running game that keeps them off the field I think they are beatable.

    Bottom line is that I don't think most QBs are Mahomes so I don't think a straight copy cat is a good solution. I think we need a real rounded team to have a shot. I think we need some sustained drives and the ability to score TDs instead of FGs.

    I am probably rambling but just some observations that I find interesting in the league right now.
    You ramble well.

    That's my "continued" take as well. I love a pass game, but I see the need for a balanced attack on various teams.

    One last thing on Baltimore, because I don't think they are going south anytime soon, but they draft Dobbins in two, showing that in spite of last season's run success (2nd most in league), they are not resting on their laurels. And though Jackson was a big reason for those yards, Ingram was also over 1,000. And a really good D, and with the addition of Queen! In fact, a great draft in my books, with a balanced O/D approach. Hey, lose Yanda, draft 2 Guards.

    I learned a hard lesson though from them last year, in fantasy. I had one of the very best kickers in Tucker, and he seldom got on the field! They would go for TDs and 2 pointers, and often on 4th down! Drove me nuts!!

    And I am not a fan of the team. I am a fan of their resourcefulness. And Ozzie Newsome was a fantastic GM!

    But I have mentioned that teams that can run, and have good Ds, can still win. Yes, SF and The Titans speak volumes in that regard. Their identities are based less on the pass game than many others. And that's why handling KC can be done, though with dissimilar looks than the team itself. Again, Indy seemed to have the blueprint on them in their match.

    To conclude, I believe most leagues have the copycat element. But I do believe The Broncos are best served by trying to be themselves, and if I could describe what I would want that to be..."a well balanced, dynamic O and an in your face, ball hawk D". I like the sound of it!

  14. #29
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    FORT COLLINS COLORADO
    Posts
    8,529
    Hasn't the nfl always been a copy cat league

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Las Manzanitas, NM
    Posts
    31,505
    Quote Originally Posted by myoung View Post
    The dynamic I find really interesting is the running game. Clearly the Ravens have a unique way they have approached it, which I am also a fan of. I think that style is much more difficult to copy because Lamar Jackson is a bit of a unicorn at this point. While I think Vick and Newton have provided similar situations, I think the Ravens took it to the next level. I like what they did. Personally I get nervous about a big dollar guy taking that many hits but time will tell.

    More interesting to me, is watching teams like the 49ers and Titans. Clearly the running game is not dead and critical to success. Although it is more common for teams to use multiple backs. Watching the Titans hesitate to go big with Henry is a very real indication of the perceived value of that position vs the other elements of the offense that lead to a great running game. The Titans seem as willing to invest in WRs and the 49ers have clearly felt the need to add dynamics to their offense. Even though they are primarily running teams.

    While I still believe the league is heading in a passing direction, I think a good running game is key to beating teams like the Chiefs. It is doubtful anyone is going to win a straight shootout (consistently) against the Chiefs. But with a little better D, that can slow them down a little and a running game that keeps them off the field I think they are beatable.

    Bottom line is that I don't think most QBs are Mahomes so I don't think a straight copy cat is a good solution. I think we need a real rounded team to have a shot. I think we need some sustained drives and the ability to score TDs instead of FGs.

    I am probably rambling but just some observations that I find interesting in the league right now.
    They say that Shurmur uses a lot of formations with 11 personnel. If Denver puts Sutton, Fant, Jeudy, Hamler and Gordon/Lindsay on the field at the same time, opposing defenses may not put more than six defenders in the box. With spread formations, that will open up running lanes probably with zone blocking. If they put Vannett and Beck on the field with Sutton, Jeudy and Lindsay, Shurmur will be able to use a stronger run formation probably with angle blocked run plays.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •