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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    I don't care for that basic level, macro assessment, things are deeper than that. I fall into the camp somewhat on believing that due to having Manning, it allowed us the platform to go and get other great players, they wanted to be here. I know Manning was kind of irrelevent to the winning year, but the guys who elected to come here were huge for us in that championship. As I acknowledged though, Elway got him, and deserves credit for that flow on effect.

    However, what is the main function of the General Manager ? I believe it is drafting, and I believe Elway is not good at that, the results are there. The other area, acquiring players in free agency, and Elway outside of one off-season has kind of fumbled his way through handing out contracts to guys who didn't produce.

    I do think it is unfair to discredit everything Elway done because of Manning, that is actually blantantly ignorant and quite frankly stupid. But I also think it is a valid argument to question calling Elway a great or elite General Manager until he creates some sustainable success unattached to Manning, I think that is fair, and kind of the general consensus outside of Denver too.

    I also really like the look of things right now, but before it's used as an argument to support what you are saying, it needs to work for a season or two, because right now the paper improvement hasn't shown anything, and every team right now thinks they are on the up and come for the following season.

    On the macro assessment of the superbowl argument, you can go to the other end of the spectrum as well. He has also built a roster that has put together 3 losing seasons in a row, the worse run in that regard since the 70's. That is why I think the argument is so polarising, because which ever side you want to argue, you can dig your heels in on either of those basic arguments.
    While I agree that I think itís still too early to give Elway the greatest GM title, I do disagree that drafting and signing players is what makes a GM great. Sure it definitely helps, but with all the HoF players, all pros, pro bowlers that Newsome was responsible for, in 28 years it resulted in 2 Super Bowls. Where is the disconnect? Coaching? I wonít claim to remember the coaching staff pre Super Bowl but since that first one theyíve had consistency and some really good coaches.

    So again whereís the disconnect? Well he never really was able to draft a QB. His first Super Bowl came very much the same way Elway won his first as a GM with a historical defense leading the way, granted that Ravens team was better on offense and special teams but I donít think thatís purely a mark against Elway. Eventually he drafted Kyle Boller who amounted to nothing, signed a retread Steve McNair (his theme in FA was to sign older vets) before drafting his best (at that point) yet remarkably average QB in Flacco. The next Super Bowl, well letís just say throughout that run there seemed to be a little something somewhere that wanted Lewis to go out on top, but again Flacco while he had his best year that year wasnít really a great QB. Sure youíd like your GM to identify more talent, absolutely, but you also want your GM to build a coaching staff that will get the most of out your players and I think despite some of the great coaching names that have came from that building for whatever reason they couldnít address the QB spot.

    And that brings me to my real point. How many GMs in the league are going to fire a guy after losing in the playoffs, before that a trip to the Super bowl, after winning the division titles however many years in a row that Fox won it. Thatís what separates Elway from a lot of GMs IMO and what I ultimately think will lead to him eventually taking this crown. People talk about the coaching carousel weíve had under him, but Fox was the right hire for that team and it was the right decision to fire him, Kubiak was the right hire for that team and by many player accounts was a tremendous motivator something that quite frankly was missing under the next Elway hire Vance Joseph. This is and probably will always be the biggest blemish on his record, but Elway was ready to move on after one season. He got talked into another year but he recognized there was a problem with his HC and the locker room very early. Now we have Vic Fangio which I think was the right hire. Whether or not heís Fox or Kubiak remains to be seen but I trust Elway to move on quickly if there is a problem.



    TL;DR A GM can draft HoF players with every pick but if he canít make them fit together as a team or get the right coaching staff for those specific players it doesnít matter. I think thatís what Newsome really struggled with for many years.

    John Lynch will be interesting to watch. Heís really in a great situation because that team is so young, the players (outside of Sherman) donít really have their own voice so Shanahan doesnít have to deal with egos (yet) and can just coach.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ear2dastreets View Post
    With all due respect. You can have your opinion and I got mine.
    Yes, opinions are pretty much why this excellent forum exists and different opinions are paramount in life. "What if" everyone had the exact, identical opinion about everything? Horribly boring.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ear2dastreets View Post
    its ok if we disagree. Its life. Some may feel elway is better and "some including me" feel that it Ozzie by a long shot. Just all opinions.
    Yes, for sure we can agree to disagree....but the comment I was applauding was more factual than the one stating Elway basically had it easy when he took over, and rode McD's players. Opinions, in my opinion, are better served with fact.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    I don't care for that basic level, macro assessment, things are deeper than that. I fall into the camp somewhat on believing that due to having Manning, it allowed us the platform to go and get other great players, they wanted to be here. I know Manning was kind of irrelevent to the winning year, but the guys who elected to come here were huge for us in that championship. As I acknowledged though, Elway got him, and deserves credit for that flow on effect.

    However, what is the main function of the General Manager ? I believe it is drafting, and I believe Elway is not good at that, the results are there. The other area, acquiring players in free agency, and Elway outside of one off-season has kind of fumbled his way through handing out contracts to guys who didn't produce.

    I do think it is unfair to discredit everything Elway done because of Manning, that is actually blantantly ignorant and quite frankly stupid. But I also think it is a valid argument to question calling Elway a great or elite General Manager until he creates some sustainable success unattached to Manning, I think that is fair, and kind of the general consensus outside of Denver too.

    I also really like the look of things right now, but before it's used as an argument to support what you are saying, it needs to work for a season or two, because right now the paper improvement hasn't shown anything, and every team right now thinks they are on the up and come for the following season.

    On the macro assessment of the superbowl argument, you can go to the other end of the spectrum as well. He has also built a roster that has put together 3 losing seasons in a row, the worse run in that regard since the 70's. That is why I think the argument is so polarising, because which ever side you want to argue, you can dig your heels in on either of those basic arguments.
    Like every argument, we can dig in. First, I am a huge fan of Ozzie Newsome and his accomplishments. Second, he is the better GM. Third, Elway was the better player. Fourth, Elway turned this team into an immediate success, then slipped a bit, whereas Newsome took many years to be successful, and after a long playing career, and a much longer career as an Exec, he has but 2 SBs....and in two attempts. Not terrible, but Elway has 8 visits and 3 rings.

    So I don't mind if folks choose Ozzie over Elway, in the combined career...but I am not keen when folks call this crazy or whatever.

    Heck, lets at least debate!

    BUT....where I dig in a little, is that if this team plays to its potential, Elway will not only be in the argument but likely be the better of the two long run. The GOAT.
    Last edited by CanDB; 05-18-2020 at 07:46 PM.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    While I agree that I think itís still too early to give Elway the greatest GM title, I do disagree that drafting and signing players is what makes a GM great. Sure it definitely helps, but with all the HoF players, all pros, pro bowlers that Newsome was responsible for, in 28 years it resulted in 2 Super Bowls. Where is the disconnect? Coaching? I wonít claim to remember the coaching staff pre Super Bowl but since that first one theyíve had consistency and some really good coaches.

    So again whereís the disconnect? Well he never really was able to draft a QB. His first Super Bowl came very much the same way Elway won his first as a GM with a historical defense leading the way, granted that Ravens team was better on offense and special teams but I donít think thatís purely a mark against Elway. Eventually he drafted Kyle Boller who amounted to nothing, signed a retread Steve McNair (his theme in FA was to sign older vets) before drafting his best (at that point) yet remarkably average QB in Flacco. The next Super Bowl, well letís just say throughout that run there seemed to be a little something somewhere that wanted Lewis to go out on top, but again Flacco while he had his best year that year wasnít really a great QB. Sure youíd like your GM to identify more talent, absolutely, but you also want your GM to build a coaching staff that will get the most of out your players and I think despite some of the great coaching names that have came from that building for whatever reason they couldnít address the QB spot.

    And that brings me to my real point. How many GMs in the league are going to fire a guy after losing in the playoffs, before that a trip to the Super bowl, after winning the division titles however many years in a row that Fox won it. Thatís what separates Elway from a lot of GMs IMO and what I ultimately think will lead to him eventually taking this crown. People talk about the coaching carousel weíve had under him, but Fox was the right hire for that team and it was the right decision to fire him, Kubiak was the right hire for that team and by many player accounts was a tremendous motivator something that quite frankly was missing under the next Elway hire Vance Joseph. This is and probably will always be the biggest blemish on his record, but Elway was ready to move on after one season. He got talked into another year but he recognized there was a problem with his HC and the locker room very early. Now we have Vic Fangio which I think was the right hire. Whether or not heís Fox or Kubiak remains to be seen but I trust Elway to move on quickly if there is a problem.



    TL;DR A GM can draft HoF players with every pick but if he canít make them fit together as a team or get the right coaching staff for those specific players it doesnít matter. I think thatís what Newsome really struggled with for many years.

    John Lynch will be interesting to watch. Heís really in a great situation because that team is so young, the players (outside of Sherman) donít really have their own voice so Shanahan doesnít have to deal with egos (yet) and can just coach.
    I'm starting to think John Lynch is going to be a serious problem for the NFC for years to come. He does something to impress me every year. Take this year's draft. Javon Kinlaw...ok, maybe not universally regarded in the same light as Brown. But you think, what's worst case scenario? With the talent on that D Line, he'll probably be a disruptive force even as a rotational player. Best case? Better than DeForest Buckner. You trade a guy trying to get paid for a high upside guy who could be just as good or better. That's how a good team stays good. NOT what the LA Rams, for example, had been doing financially or otherwise going into this offseason. On top of that. You know you're not going to take Wirfs...how about turning a 7th rounder into a 4th rounder for free? Ok. And, for those who want to say, "Come on, they wanted Ruggs...." Stick around.

    This is where it gets saucy. Bear with me here, because I'll do some projecting on this one, but I think I'm right. Going into the draft, all we heard coming out of SF was how they're gunna trade back. They wanted to trade out of their 1st round picks. That's all we heard about. You look at mock drafts, and who doesn't have Brandon Aiyuk (who, lets be honest, has a real shot of being one of the three or four best receivers in this draft) going in the back end of the 1st round? A lot of people, like myself, seem to think Green Bay wants him. Fast forward to draft night, and boom, SF trades ahead of GB for Brandon Aiyuk. Now, I don't know if Green Bay was going to take Aiyuk or they were gunna take Love the whole way. All I know is, they must not have felt very good about Mims, and I think everyone in this thread can agree that they really took a dump by taking Love where they did. I'm not saying Aiyuk was Plan A, but I sure as hell think he should have been. And if I were to make that assumption, you gotta feel like you really had no idea what just hit you if you're the Packers, and the 9ers had been telling everyone who would listen that they were trying to trade back going into the draft. In the end here, even if the Packers were planning to set their team back and alienate Rodgers by taking a quarterback the entire way, the 9ers trading up for Aiyuk was still a great move. Why's that? They traded a 4th round pick and a late 5th round pick to move up, and the 4th round pick was just given to them by Tampa Bay for a 7th. And that's precisely why, IMO, it doesn't even matter that they did or did not miss out on Ruggs.

    Getting back on topic though, and I know, I went way off course there. I don't know if I'd put John on top of Newsome just yet, but if Lock pans out, with the potential of this draft class...it could definitely happen in my eyes.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    While I agree that I think itís still too early to give Elway the greatest GM title, I do disagree that drafting and signing players is what makes a GM great. Sure it definitely helps, but with all the HoF players, all pros, pro bowlers that Newsome was responsible for, in 28 years it resulted in 2 Super Bowls. Where is the disconnect? Coaching? I wonít claim to remember the coaching staff pre Super Bowl but since that first one theyíve had consistency and some really good coaches.

    So again whereís the disconnect? Well he never really was able to draft a QB. His first Super Bowl came very much the same way Elway won his first as a GM with a historical defense leading the way, granted that Ravens team was better on offense and special teams but I donít think thatís purely a mark against Elway. Eventually he drafted Kyle Boller who amounted to nothing, signed a retread Steve McNair (his theme in FA was to sign older vets) before drafting his best (at that point) yet remarkably average QB in Flacco. The next Super Bowl, well letís just say throughout that run there seemed to be a little something somewhere that wanted Lewis to go out on top, but again Flacco while he had his best year that year wasnít really a great QB. Sure youíd like your GM to identify more talent, absolutely, but you also want your GM to build a coaching staff that will get the most of out your players and I think despite some of the great coaching names that have came from that building for whatever reason they couldnít address the QB spot.

    And that brings me to my real point. How many GMs in the league are going to fire a guy after losing in the playoffs, before that a trip to the Super bowl, after winning the division titles however many years in a row that Fox won it. Thatís what separates Elway from a lot of GMs IMO and what I ultimately think will lead to him eventually taking this crown. People talk about the coaching carousel weíve had under him, but Fox was the right hire for that team and it was the right decision to fire him, Kubiak was the right hire for that team and by many player accounts was a tremendous motivator something that quite frankly was missing under the next Elway hire Vance Joseph. This is and probably will always be the biggest blemish on his record, but Elway was ready to move on after one season. He got talked into another year but he recognized there was a problem with his HC and the locker room very early. Now we have Vic Fangio which I think was the right hire. Whether or not heís Fox or Kubiak remains to be seen but I trust Elway to move on quickly if there is a problem.



    TL;DR A GM can draft HoF players with every pick but if he canít make them fit together as a team or get the right coaching staff for those specific players it doesnít matter. I think thatís what Newsome really struggled with for many years.

    John Lynch will be interesting to watch. Heís really in a great situation because that team is so young, the players (outside of Sherman) donít really have their own voice so Shanahan doesnít have to deal with egos (yet) and can just coach.
    You can't say the gm is all about hiring the coaching staff the owner has a part and I feel Harbaugh has chosen his guys

  7. #82
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    This is a good thread. It's not really about arguing over Ozzie Newsome or John Elway or anyone else for that matter. One thing we can all agree on is that John Elway is the greatest Denver Bronco ever. And I am very grateful that he is a part of this organization. We are lucky to have him.

  8. #83
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    I agree it is fun discussion while we all wait for some real life NFL action to start

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadez View Post
    I agree it is fun discussion while we all wait for some real life NFL action to start
    Yes sir....looking for good things to talk about. Don't have to agree. But at very least, I think we should try not to junk topics without appreciating the opportunity to discuss, debate, agree or disagree. I consider a good thread one that continues to draw more and more data and factual information, to support one's view. After I started the thread, I started finding out more details about the people involved, especially Newsome. His career was even longer than I first thought, and he was an Exec on two teams. But his relatively weak start made me feel like this was a closer competition than at first glance.

    The age old question really raised its head....how important are SBs in all of this, even though one person can not be held accountable, in my opinion. But then again, if you are on multiple SB teams, as a player and Exec, that must count for something. And what makes this a closer comparison as well, in my opinion, is the first 9 year results as a GM. Newsome's longevity makes him the better GM, but his comparable first 9 years were not very good.

    That's why I believe this one gets settled in the next 5 or so years, if Elway gets us back to the SB, for example. This team looks well built for that type of possibility.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by rst08tierney View Post
    Bronco fan first but Elway is not the goat. It took a run game to get him over the hump with a W when it counts the most on Super Bowl Sunday.

    Montana and Brady should only be argued for the on field GOAT QB
    Elway needed a run game, what Superbowlís did Montana and Brady win without help?

    I remember Brady losing a Super Bowl with the NFLís best offense and a Bill Bellicheck defense that held the Giants to 17 pts.

    Montana with Hall of Fame running back Marcus Allen in KC didnít make it to a Super Bowl.

    Montana and Brady deserve the GOAT status but a big part of that has to do with Bellicheck and Walsh.
    Elway probably wins a handful of Superbowls with those coaches and teams.
    Last edited by 58Miller; 05-19-2020 at 04:07 PM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by rst08tierney View Post
    Bronco fan first but Elway is not the goat. It took a run game to get him over the hump with a W when it counts the most on Super Bowl Sunday.

    Montana and Brady should only be argued for the on field GOAT QB
    Broncos Fan Card Revoked!!
    Negs are Cowardly Acts of Nonsense. I wonít Back Down.
    No Matter How Stupid Your Comments Are!
    Still Not Backing Down!!!

  12. #87
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    I still can't believe what Elway has done with the last two drafts. If Drew Lock and 75% of these offensive pieces work out, Elway will go down as one of the great GM's of all time (not just player/GM).

    To put already together one of the best O's of all time from when he took the helm, to completely building one of the best D's a few years later is mind blowing. Now he might have a chance to put together one of the most balanced teams in the NFL.

    Elway has taken some shots to stay competitive, some have worked out and others have failed. But when he does see a window for a championship caliber team he goes all in, and that's what I love about him!

    You can't force the issue too much unless the timing is right. Without a franchise QB timing usually isn't right. Elway shot and missed for a QB a few times, but like he said "they don't grow on trees".

    I think Elway saw that window at the tail end of last year and fired away. Keep in mind, without Vic as our head coach and being the defensive guru, I don't think Elway makes all these offensive moves. The hiring of Fangio should not be overlooked on how Elway has pieced this together in a short amount of time.
    Last edited by MarshallMoss; 05-20-2020 at 01:32 PM.
    "He's going to be the #1 receiver, and is going to be a star in this league for a long time" Todd Mcshay on Jerry Jeudy

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarshallMoss View Post
    I still can't believe what Elway has done with the last two drafts. If Drew Lock and 75% of these offensive pieces work out, Elway will go down as one of the great GM's of all time (not just player/GM).

    To put already together one of the best O's of all time from when he took the helm, to completely building one of the best D's a few years later is mind blowing. Now he might have a chance to put together one of the most balanced teams in the NFL.

    Elway has taken some shots to stay competitive, some have worked out and others have failed. But when he does see a window for a championship caliber team he goes all in, and that's what I love about him!

    I think Elway saw that window at the tail end of last year and fired away. Keep in mind, without Vic as our head coach and being the defensive guru, I don't think Elway makes all these offensive moves. The hiring of Fangio should not be overlooked on how Elway has pieced this together in a short amount of time.
    Love the positivity!!!

  14. #89
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    A little while back I posted how some local media said the general plan was for Elway to draft O and pay for D. They also said the plan then would shift to buying O and drafting D. Elway's overall plan is to take advantages of windows of opportunity on each side of the ball.

    It looks like they got the first part of the general plan correct. It will be interesting to see if the second part starts to play out. I can't see us drafting a lot of WRs, RBs and TEs next year.

  15. #90
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    Elway is the best player that has ever been a GM in my opinion.

    Newsome has had a better run as a GM than Elway and everyone in the NFL in the last 20 years.

    Elway will have a hard time ever reaching the level Newsome has achieved as a GM.

    Another Super Bowl would help

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