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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzbodog View Post
    With all do respect...having certainty of anything is nearly impossible when "what if's" start to show up in forum conversations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hadez View Post
    That was the point I was trying to make. Not saying there is no value to the what if concept but usually it comes with a cherry picking "what if" to support the conclusion one is trying to make. Then imo it has no value at all.
    I think the right question is not "what if" rather "what about?"


  2. #62
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    Elway changed the direction of the franchise, and restored it's respectable image. After McDaniels ran the team and everything else into the ground, Elway came in and made great move after great move, especially early on. The John Fox hire is the most underrated thing Elway has ever done, and I look at that move as being the major player in the Championship we have, and the team we had for a few years there. While not an exciting move, Fox came in and was the exact coach we needed at the time.

    While I agree that Elway had the ultimate bargaining chip in building the team with Manning being here, he was the one who got Manning. Elway put in place an environment with Fox and company that was "night and day" to what the building was like a year prior, and Manning obviously felt that. Do you think Manning chooses Denver in early 2011 after McDaniels done what he done here ? I don't. Elway had a year to get things in order with the coaching staff, a solid draft class, some decent free agent moves, and it led to the ultimate move of getting Manning.

    The off-season where Elway done his best work was the year where he brang in Talib, Ware, Ward, and Sanders. We were a team that needed an identity and some toughness, and Elway got the exact right guys for that. The change of coaching staff eventually was a big call as well which paid huge dividends. Although, Kubiak is beyond overrated, but the way he handled the quarterback carousel there could of been the falling apart of an inexperienced coach.

    I hate that while we were having success Elway wasn't putting together even remotely decent draft classes, because it led to the hole we have lived through for the past 3 years. I also hate the free agent mistakes he has made trying to slap band-aids on the team hoping we were a quick fix away from competing again. We needed to commit to a rebuild years ago, but it seems we have now, and to no surprise we are trending upwards.

    We have had a couple respectable drafts the past few years, we have a qualified coaching staff again, and we have hope, Elway has done that. Again though, I think getting another veteran coach in here is what Elway has done right. This time again that veteran coach has been willing to blood new guys, and that is what leads the acceleration of a rebuild, something we seem to have committed to finally.

    I think Elway is an okay General Manager who like all of them has crosses next to his resume in terms of what he is good/bad at. I don't like how he drafts for the most part, I hate how for years he refused to acknowledge the roster needed an overhaul, and I hate how his free agent acquisitions have slowly gotten worse by the year since 2014 was it ? But here we are now in a good place finally, and if Lock can be who I think he will be, and the young talent develops like they should, I think in a few years Elway will have hopefully put together something that stands apart from Manning, making him worthy of the title of the thread.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Elway changed the direction of the franchise, and restored it's respectable image. After McDaniels ran the team and everything else into the ground, Elway came in and made great move after great move, especially early on. The John Fox hire is the most underrated thing Elway has ever done, and I look at that move as being the major player in the Championship we have, and the team we had for a few years there. While not an exciting move, Fox came in and was the exact coach we needed at the time.

    While I agree that Elway had the ultimate bargaining chip in building the team with Manning being here, he was the one who got Manning. Elway put in place an environment with Fox and company that was "night and day" to what the building was like a year prior, and Manning obviously felt that. Do you think Manning chooses Denver in early 2011 after McDaniels done what he done here ? I don't. Elway had a year to get things in order with the coaching staff, a solid draft class, some decent free agent moves, and it led to the ultimate move of getting Manning.

    The off-season where Elway done his best work was the year where he brang in Talib, Ware, Ward, and Sanders. We were a team that needed an identity and some toughness, and Elway got the exact right guys for that. The change of coaching staff eventually was a big call as well which paid huge dividends. Although, Kubiak is beyond overrated, but the way he handled the quarterback carousel there could of been the falling apart of an inexperienced coach.

    I hate that while we were having success Elway wasn't putting together even remotely decent draft classes, because it led to the hole we have lived through for the past 3 years. I also hate the free agent mistakes he has made trying to slap band-aids on the team hoping we were a quick fix away from competing again. We needed to commit to a rebuild years ago, but it seems we have now, and to no surprise we are trending upwards.

    We have had a couple respectable drafts the past few years, we have a qualified coaching staff again, and we have hope, Elway has done that. Again though, I think getting another veteran coach in here is what Elway has done right. This time again that veteran coach has been willing to blood new guys, and that is what leads the acceleration of a rebuild, something we seem to have committed to finally.

    I think Elway is an okay General Manager who like all of them has crosses next to his resume in terms of what he is good/bad at. I don't like how he drafts for the most part, I hate how for years he refused to acknowledge the roster needed an overhaul, and I hate how his free agent acquisitions have slowly gotten worse by the year since 2014 was it ? But here we are now in a good place finally, and if Lock can be who I think he will be, and the young talent develops like they should, I think in a few years Elway will have hopefully put together something that stands apart from Manning, making him worthy of the title of the thread.
    Just a question....how many "ok" GMs have been to the SB twice in their first 5 years, and won one? And though I loved when Manning was playing here, his role was limited in the SB winning season.

    Yes, the last few years have not been too wonderful. I get that. But just look at the new look of this squad, and it smacks of another nice run in the tank. To repeat, Newsome only made the playoffs once in his first 9 seasons as an Exec/GM, for a total of one wild card victory.

  4. #64
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    As a GM I give the edge to Ozzie.

    As a player I give a big edge to Elway. I would put Lynch on about the same level as Ozzie and both would be a great asset for any team.

    IMO the gap between Elway and Ozzie as players is much bigger than Ozzie and Elway as GMs. So I'd pick Elway as the best combo, at least in the Super Bowl era.

    A little off topic but of all the major American sports I'd say Jerry West is the all time best player/GM combo.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzbodog View Post
    With all do respect...having certainty of anything is nearly impossible when "what if's" start to show up in forum conversations.
    With all due respect. You can have your opinion and I got mine.
    We could have had Lamar Jackson *LJ for M.V.P*

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    One thing in life I have learned....the woulda, coulda, shoulda approach amounts to dust in the long run. What actually happens is what we live by. Everything else is speculation at best, even if quite interesting to imagine.
    ok so we will speak facts. Three straight losing seasons. But it is what it is. Goo Broncos!!!
    We could have had Lamar Jackson *LJ for M.V.P*

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by lvbronx View Post
    As a GM I give the edge to Ozzie.

    As a player I give a big edge to Elway. I would put Lynch on about the same level as Ozzie and both would be a great asset for any team.

    IMO the gap between Elway and Ozzie as players is much bigger than Ozzie and Elway as GMs. So I'd pick Elway as the best combo, at least in the Super Bowl era.

    A little off topic but of all the major American sports I'd say Jerry West is the all time best player/GM combo.
    Agreed on all of the above. And yes, Jerry West is a sports icon. I'll throw in a person who I am a huge fan of - Stevie Yzerman. Not quite as flashy as some, but one of the greatest players in NHL history, and an excellent Exec/GM, winning Stanley Cups and two Gold Medals as Canada's Olympic GM. He is still active, and turned Tampa Bay into a top tier team. Steve is the longest serving captain of any North American pro sport team, at 20 years. Great leader, great player, great champion (as a player/Exec), great guy!




  8. #68
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    Newsome had 1 winning season from 91 to 99. Thatís the same amount of time Elway has been the GM here

  9. #69
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    This thread is crazy considering Newsome took a losing franchise and turned them into a model franchise .

    Elway bought a Sb and rode McDs players.

    Newsome is far more accomplished of the two and itís insulting to compare them as GMs

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champ>NFL View Post
    This thread is crazy considering Newsome took a losing franchise and turned them into a model franchise .

    Elway bought a Sb and rode McDs players.

    Newsome is far more accomplished of the two and it’s insulting to compare them as GMs
    Crazy???

    Did you read what this thread is about? Did it say, Elway is a better GM than Newsome? Elway's player career was better, and not to demean Newsome, because he was a Hall of Famer Tight End. But as one of the best QBs in history, who got us to 5 SBs and won back to back, John Elway easily wins the player part. Ozzie never had a chance to go to the SB as a player.

    Newsome has the better GM credentials thus far. 2 SB victories in 2 visits. But 28 years as an Exec/GM, while Elway has been there twice and won one, in just his first 5 years! Not Ozzie's fault completely, but 1 for 9 in his first 9 years! One playoff wild card victory.

    If this was a comparable discussion, first 9 years as a GM, Elway cleans up as GM, and as player also. And with the new look of our Broncos, I see a very bright future. It may propel Elway's GM career into something very special, not that his first 5 years weren't special! Just needs to gain traction again.

    Did you say McD's players? So we came off a 4 and 12 season, and Elway chooses Von in the draft. Is that to credit McDaniels?? Oh I see, we had a bad season, so Elway got to choose early in the draft. What am I missing? Did we not just come off losing seasons, and did Elway not architect the resurgence??


    That's why the discussion is NOT crazy. I will attack your post....it's CRAZY!
    Last edited by CanDB; 05-18-2020 at 02:31 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champ>NFL View Post
    This thread is crazy considering Newsome took a losing franchise and turned them into a model franchise .

    Elway bought a Sb and rode McDs players.

    Newsome is far more accomplished of the two and itís insulting to compare them as GMs
    They were 3-13 the season before he took over but they won the division 5 straight times before that so how exactly were they a losing franchise?
    Last edited by beastlyskronk; 05-18-2020 at 02:35 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    They were 3-13 the season before he took over but they won the division 5 straight times before that so how exactly were they a losing franchise?
    Exactly!

    I am not sure what the logic is here. Elway rode the wave?? Had all those McD players to excel with? Meanwhile Newsome had to fix a losing situation, but he only had 1 playoff wild card win in his first 9 years?????

    Do not comprehend the logic?!

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    Newsome had 1 winning season from 91 to 99. That’s the same amount of time Elway has been the GM here
    That was back when fa first started almost. But you can have that one.
    We could have had Lamar Jackson *LJ for M.V.P*

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    Exactly!

    I am not sure what the logic is here. Elway rode the wave?? Had all those McD players to excel with? Meanwhile Newsome had to fix a losing situation, but he only had 1 playoff wild card win in his first 9 years?????

    Do not comprehend the logic?!
    its ok if we disagree. Its life. Some may feel elway is better and "some including me" feel that it Ozzie by a long shot. Just all opinions.
    We could have had Lamar Jackson *LJ for M.V.P*

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    Just a question....how many "ok" GMs have been to the SB twice in their first 5 years, and won one? And though I loved when Manning was playing here, his role was limited in the SB winning season.

    Yes, the last few years have not been too wonderful. I get that. But just look at the new look of this squad, and it smacks of another nice run in the tank. To repeat, Newsome only made the playoffs once in his first 9 seasons as an Exec/GM, for a total of one wild card victory.
    I don't care for that basic level, macro assessment, things are deeper than that. I fall into the camp somewhat on believing that due to having Manning, it allowed us the platform to go and get other great players, they wanted to be here. I know Manning was kind of irrelevent to the winning year, but the guys who elected to come here were huge for us in that championship. As I acknowledged though, Elway got him, and deserves credit for that flow on effect.

    However, what is the main function of the General Manager ? I believe it is drafting, and I believe Elway is not good at that, the results are there. The other area, acquiring players in free agency, and Elway outside of one off-season has kind of fumbled his way through handing out contracts to guys who didn't produce.

    I do think it is unfair to discredit everything Elway done because of Manning, that is actually blantantly ignorant and quite frankly stupid. But I also think it is a valid argument to question calling Elway a great or elite General Manager until he creates some sustainable success unattached to Manning, I think that is fair, and kind of the general consensus outside of Denver too.

    I also really like the look of things right now, but before it's used as an argument to support what you are saying, it needs to work for a season or two, because right now the paper improvement hasn't shown anything, and every team right now thinks they are on the up and come for the following season.

    On the macro assessment of the superbowl argument, you can go to the other end of the spectrum as well. He has also built a roster that has put together 3 losing seasons in a row, the worse run in that regard since the 70's. That is why I think the argument is so polarising, because which ever side you want to argue, you can dig your heels in on either of those basic arguments.

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