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  1. #46
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    For the Montana v young debate...

    I can’t find it yet, but I once read where near the end of Montana’s run in SAN Fran opposing coaches were very care to advise players to not knock him Out of the game...because they didn’t want young in....feeling he was more of a threat ..
    Last edited by EddieMac; 06-05-2020 at 06:29 AM.
    http://s7.postimg.org/hjr8fcmaz/EM2.jpg

    Adopted Bronco: Andy Janovich

  2. #47
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    I don't think this is the right place, but I can't find the correct one. NBCS network is showing the Super Bowl between Denver and Green Bay. I tuned in just in time to see Elway's famous "helicopter" move. What fun! He was pretty good, wasn't he"

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarshallMoss View Post
    Seeing that Elway so far is the consensus pick, who other than Manning/Brady could dethrone him?

    A few have put Steve Young in the conversation...would he be better than Elway in today's NFL?

    I love Young but I do have two knocks against him that would put him below Elway:

    1. Young had amazing surrounding talent around him early in his career to be successful. The best receiver ever to play the game in Rice and a soon to be HOF in Roger Craig. Elway didn't have anybody in his early years.

    2. Young played a little reckless and didn't have a long career in an era that was much slower and smaller than today's NFL. Would Young last his first year in today's NFL? Elway was very calculated when he ran and was amazing at dodging heavy hits (end of career helicopter being an exception lol)
    I don't agree with this at all. He hadn't became the starter until his 8th season, but still played in quite a few games. His body pretty much broke down at 37, a year younger than Elway. I do agree the concussions were bad.

    Plus, he'd have as many rings as Brady if it werent for the Cowboys dynasty and Brett Favre.
    Last edited by CoryWinget81; 06-04-2020 at 10:45 PM.

    Hooray, beer!

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny_Quest View Post
    Montana was better than Elway. Full stop. Not even a question outside of Colorado.

    Just look at the numbers. Beats Elway decisively in every category.

    I liked Elway more obviously. But Montana was a better QB.
    So do you think if Elway and Montana were switched, Montana would still have all those numbers and rings and Elway wouldn’t have at least replicated what Montana did with the 49ers?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny_Quest View Post
    Montana was better than Elway. Full stop. Not even a question outside of Colorado.

    Just look at the numbers. Beats Elway decisively in every category.

    I liked Elway more obviously. But Montana was a better QB.
    Broncos Fan Card Revoked Forever!!!
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny_Quest View Post
    Montana was better than Elway. Full stop. Not even a question outside of Colorado.

    Just look at the numbers. Beats Elway decisively in every category.

    I liked Elway more obviously. But Montana was a better QB.
    Debatable:

    They are all great QBs each with their own strengths and weaknesses.

    There have been few true innovations in offense and defense during the entire history of pro football. One was Bill Walsh's West Coast Offense. He began implementing it in San Francisco forty years ago and it is still viable today. A number of the 2019 NFL playoff coaches are in Walsh's tree including Andy Reid.

    Joe Montana had the good fortune to come into the league with Walsh, and he won three Super Bowls with him. The WCO is complex, nuanced and very quarterback-centric.
    Would Montana have done as well in a different offense under a different coach? How would he have done under Dan Reeves and Wade Phillips?

    How would John Elway have done under Bill Walsh? At the end of his career John Elway finally won two Super Bowls under Mike Shanahan who was also in Bill Walsh's coaching tree.

    Another thing to consider when it comes to pro quarterbacks is who is calling the plays. Otto Graham is one of the greatest QBs, but Paul Brown sent the plays in with rotating Guards. Bart Starr called his own plays. Tom Landry called the plays Roger Staubach ran, but Terry Bradshaw called his own. Bill Walsh's offense is one of the most specifically designed and coached possible. He wouldn't dream of letting any QB call his own plays; he sent them in. In his heyday, Peyton Manning ran a low-volume offensive system that he called at the LOS using the playclock to get a pre-snap read, so that he could audibly communicate the play to his teammates.

    If all these things aren't taken into consideration and placed in context, it's pretty much an apples/oranges discussion IMO.

  7. #52
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    Most would agree that Elway wasn’t a one read and go QB. So the fact that he had the most rushing attempts by a QB ever when he retired (4th now) goes to show how often he made something out of nothing.

    Imo Elway raw talent transcends eras, he’d be a top QB anywhere and anytime. Imagine Elway throwing in Lock’s shoulder pads, he might’ve taken fingers clean off. Or if his receivers had the minimal shoulder pads they use now and weren’t restricted in their arm motions. I can’t say the same for Montana because I don’t think his arm translates to this era’s speed and tight windows and I dont think Brady or Manning would be the QBs they were in the 80s, I think they’d fall below Dan Marino.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    Most would agree that Elway wasn’t a one read and go QB. So the fact that he had the most rushing attempts by a QB ever when he retired (4th now) goes to show how often he made something out of nothing.

    Imo Elway raw talent transcends eras, he’d be a top QB anywhere and anytime. Imagine Elway throwing in Lock’s shoulder pads, he might’ve taken fingers clean off. Or if his receivers had the minimal shoulder pads they use now and weren’t restricted in their arm motions. I can’t say the same for Montana because I don’t think his arm translates to this era’s speed and tight windows and I dont think Brady or Manning would be the QBs they were in the 80s, I think they’d fall below Dan Marino.
    Right. I'm sure some of Elway's rushing attempts were called, but most of them were scrambles on a pass play when he couldn't find a receiver and was escaping pressure.

    The measure of an NFL throwing arm is a 15 yard out outside the numbers from between the hallmarks. Elway could throw a 15 yard out at the sideline from the opposite sideline on a frozen rope that would bruise the receiver. No QB with an arm as strong as Elway's has been as accurate and successful as he.

    With his athleticism, Elway would have excelled in any offense whether Single Wing, Veer, Wing-T, Wishbone, Power/Opton I, Pistol, Spread Option, Air Coryell or WCO.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Right. I'm sure some of Elway's rushing attempts were called, but most of them were scrambles on a pass play when he couldn't find a receiver and was escaping pressure.

    The measure of an NFL throwing arm is a 15 yard out outside the numbers from between the hallmarks. Elway could throw a 15 yard out at the sideline from the opposite sideline on a frozen rope that would bruise the receiver. No QB with an arm as strong as Elway's has been as accurate and successful as he.

    With his athleticism, Elway would have excelled in any offense whether Single Wing, Veer, Wing-T, Wishbone, Power/Opton I, Pistol, Spread Option, Air Coryell or WCO.
    Sam...what about this formation?




  10. #55
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    This question is almost impossible to answer, but here's what I know. Elway struggled mightily his rookie year, but he did have that elite talent (which is a wild card) and flair for the comeback going for him. It took Peyton a year to gather intel before he started clowning every defense in the league except for BB. Brady was really a game manager his first couple years, albeit a smart one who was clutch. I think it would be Elway or Brady if you slapped them on the Bengals as rookies. I think there's a good chance that Brady would win more games in the regular season, but without that BB defense, he wasn't winning any playoff games. Elway was a guy who could beat a lot of good teams with crap teams.

    That's why I appreciate the mentions of guys like Tarkenton, Young, Favre, Vick (especially Vick). Those guys could all do silly things on the football field that would put defenses in a bind. Tarkenton scrambling around buying time. Young just taking off like a running back. Vick taking off like the fastest running back who ever played football (and oh, yeah he can throw it a mile without his feet set), and Favre just being Favre, and throwing laser beams through triple coverage. Sometimes you just can't defend that no matter how good your defense is. No disrespect to Wilson, Watson, and Mahomes either. There are a lot of guys in today's game who can make something out of nothing.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    Sam...what about this formation?



    Looks like the Canadian Formation to me.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Looks like the Canadian Formation to me.
    Oooouuuuuch!!

    It's a good play if you're looking for minus 1 yards.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny_Quest View Post
    Montana was better than Elway. Full stop. Not even a question outside of Colorado.

    Just look at the numbers. Beats Elway decisively in every category.

    I liked Elway more obviously. But Montana was a better QB.
    I'd take Elway over Montana 9/10 times.

    Elway wasn't afraid of contact.
    He graduated Stanford, the West's Harvard.
    Cannon-arm.

    Montana and Brady play the QB position more robotic,
    which is fine unless you need to escape from Von Miller.

    Plus, Montana had Jerry Rice and his sticky icky gloves.
    Also, 49ers' Super Bowl defenses are underrated.

    Elway in SF wins three more Lombardis, easy.

  14. #59
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    I feel like goat is hard to judge what if fran tarkenten played now I bet he would be dynamic and fun to watch. I feel like you can do goats of an era but not really an all time goat

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mozzerpete View Post
    I'd take Elway over Montana 9/10 times.

    Elway wasn't afraid of contact.
    He graduated Stanford, the West's Harvard.
    Cannon-arm.

    Montana and Brady play the QB position more robotic,
    which is fine unless you need to escape from Von Miller.

    Plus, Montana had Jerry Rice and his sticky icky gloves.
    Also, 49ers' Super Bowl defenses are underrated.

    Elway in SF wins three more Lombardis, easy.
    I think Trent Dilfer wins a couple of Super Bowls with those Montana 49er teams.
    "He's going to be the #1 receiver, and is going to be a star in this league for a long time" Todd Mcshay on Jerry Jeudy

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