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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadez View Post
    I pick Elway. When his team was good enough to keep them in the game Elway was as clutch as any QB. Nerves of steel, made players around him better and physical abilities that were off the charts.

    My 2nd pick would be Dan Marino. In terms of pure passer there has been no better QB. Did not have the mobility of Elway or Young but his release and delivery of the ball were football-godlike.

    3rd would be PM. Lacked the physical skills others had but his mental ability and leadership was the next level compared to other Qbs.

    I know Tom Brady has a spot in the conversation. Come back after what I see him do with the Bucs.
    That is Elway in a nutshell!
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    I believe that a passing, mobile, athletic QB is better suited to today's NFL, therefore I give Elway the edge. In that regard, I am sure Steve Young would be a stud, and Montana, of course, because he was nimble and smart, and accurate.

    Brady and Manning would be a little less effective than Elway, and Young, on teams with weaker Olines.

    As an aside, if you gave Marino a good Oline and a couple of decent receivers, he was a pleasure to watch!! An AMAZING passer!!
    Actually, we saw just how bad the Coltsí o-line was once Manning was out. Itís how they got Andrew Luck. Despite Luckís superior athleticism, he still ended up retiring early because of injuries that can be partially blamed on the Colts having a crappy o-line for most of his time there.

    I still take Elway, but I think Manning would still be a baller.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncolee View Post
    Actually, we saw just how bad the Colts’ o-line was once Manning was out. It’s how they got Andrew Luck. Despite Luck’s superior athleticism, he still ended up retiring early because of injuries that can be partially blamed on the Colts having a crappy o-line for most of his time there.

    I still take Elway, but I think Manning would still be a baller.
    No doubt. If you read my later post, I gave Manning extra points for his ability to run The O as well as execute it. Like an OC taking snaps. And the other thing I did not mention was that Manning practiced so hard, and it was not a surprise that he could drop balls into receivers' hands with high accuracy. Manning is a top level QB, and he deserves to be near the top.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarshallMoss View Post
    After watching The Match golf tournament with Manning and Brady it got me thinking again of the best of all time. Brady is probably going down as the best player in NFL history, but what if we looked at this a different way. Would Brady survive even 1 season if he was playing in lets say Jacksonville as a rookie? Did Brady evolve into this type of player and become the force he is because of early ideal circumstances?

    I'm going to add Elway to this debate.

    Which QB do you think would come out on top if they were all just coming out of college this year and were put into a simulation where they each would play a whole season with every NFL team?

    Meaning Brady would not have Belicheck coaching him for 98% of his games.

    Environment, system, coaches, weather, surrounding talent, ownership, the division and era played in are just a few factors that determine a players success.

    If we were to factor in all these elements (meaning every QB plays in the best and worst of it), who comes out strongest?

    I'm going with Elway. I think the advantage of having a mobile QB in today's NFL is bigger than ever. Elway has already demonstrated winning with the little talent around him in his early years compared to the other two QB's. Elway also made an appearance in 3 superbowls with that depleted talent and with a coach that didn't align well to his fullest capablilties.

    1st year rookie QB rankings for me:

    1. Elway
    2. Manning
    3. Brady

    Would your ranking order change if it were a 5 year sample? 10 year sample?

    Love to hear opinions and have a healthy debate.
    Definitely Elway at No.1.

    Manning would probably make the most playoff appearances of all three but once there would most likely falter more than succeed.

    Brady would make the playoffs on fewer occasions than Manning but would be more successful overall.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    Young didnít have Craig when he took over the starting job from Montana. The team was still very good and still had Jerry Rice but the offense wasnít quite what Montana had to work with.

    Young was in the NFL for 15 seasons, granted he was the starter for only 9 seasons. But he also didnít get a real chance until he was already 30 years old. I just think that if he went to a better situation than Tampa Bay when he crossed over from the USFL he would be even more highly regarded than he is. Just like Iím sure if Elway had some talent around him on offense heíd be the unquestioned GOAT.

    Those guys will probably forever be 1 and 2 for me because the added mobility opens up so much for an offense and as seen with Elway, it can take you places you probably wouldnít have been otherwise.
    Interesting to know if he regrets going to the usfl and not joining the bengals in 84 , the bengals finished 10 - 6 in 86 , elway might not have had 5 sb appearances and the bengals may have beat the 49ers in sb 23 , i know he had a great career statistically with the 49ers but he was far too good to be in anyoneís shadow particularly as he was just better than montana anyway imo .

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncolee View Post
    Actually, we saw just how bad the Coltsí o-line was once Manning was out. Itís how they got Andrew Luck. Despite Luckís superior athleticism, he still ended up retiring early because of injuries that can be partially blamed on the Colts having a crappy o-line for most of his time there.

    I still take Elway, but I think Manning would still be a baller.
    Our OL went downhill when PM had his injury plagued 2015 and after PM as well.

    The real interesting thing between PM and Elway is how they both excelled at the same thing but in different ways. PM was able to make players better by knowing what the defense was going to do and putting his offense in a position to succeed with preparation, audibles and execution. Elway was able to make players around him better with leadership and personal improvisation and execution of the game of football.

    I watch more of Broncos than any other players. I usually watch the game once to enjoy the roller coaster ride of emotions with minimal replay. Then I watch a game a 2nd time breaking it down. Sometimes I go back a third time and track metrics.

    Feel really fortunate to have been able to watch both PM and Elway play. I do not have words for it.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanDB View Post
    Good post H. Elway was clutch. He made things happen. He had a strong arm. Again, he fits the parameters of this analysis.

    I don't see Marino quite that high on the list but I completely agree with you that this man was as pure a passer as anyone who ever played the game. It was masterful!!

    But I also wanted to follow up on what you said about Manning. Manning was unique in that he truly ran the O. He was an OC on the field. That's worth something in the final assessment.
    We can agree to disagree on Marino

    Something about PM is I did not really have an appreciation for what he did as a QB mentally until I was able to see him practice, read how he prepared with the team, hear about how he interacted with individuals through the week and than watched him play on Sunday. It was fun to be able to watch.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadez View Post
    We can agree to disagree on Marino

    Something about PM is I did not really have an appreciation for what he did as a QB mentally until I was able to see him practice, read how he prepared with the team, hear about how he interacted with individuals through the week and than watched him play on Sunday. It was fun to be able to watch.
    Hey pal, we do not disagree by very much. I was a Marino fan, and he was amazing!! Just needed a little more team success. BUT because of this theoretical approach to rating the QBs, Marino probably rises a little, from an already lofty position. Again, arguably the purest arm of all time!

  9. #24
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    On the field it's hard to go wrong with any of them...so I'll go with Peyton because of his off the field personality. He's the most fun of the bunch by far.

    Elway is probably the best if they had to play on a bad team.

  10. #25
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    Peyton Manning is the GOAT

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champ>NFL View Post
    Peyton Manning is the GOAT
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  12. #27
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    Elway is still the standard when rating prospects.


    2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 Adopted Bronco: Chris Harris Jr.

  13. #28
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    It is beautiful with the enschrinement of Elway, but most here seem to forget that Elway was not terribly consistent, it was not pretty, it was not controlled and then we had some highlights that none of the others could match. The Elway/Reeves combo had a lot of resemblence to the Tebow/Fox combo of HCs not trusting their QBs for a whole game and then letting them loose for 10-15 minutes of beautiful football.

    Manning clearly proved that he thrived in spite of the OCs - or rather the OCs rarely mattered. Manning was a marvel with his death by a thousand paper cuts football, and his limit was - as Elway - that mental skill/physical skill worked until the competition was elite. Objectively Manning was better than Elway, and without Reeves Elway's career might have resembled Jay Cutlers.

    Brady's ability to react post snap is abowe the rest, but all in all, Manning is the QB that could most easily have gone anywhere and made the impact he did - it remains to be seen if Brady can. Elway would never have taught DT how to run routes, how to signal, how to read the brakes, because Elway did not start playing smart football until late in his career.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoFanDK View Post
    It is beautiful with the enschrinement of Elway, but most here seem to forget that Elway was not terribly consistent, it was not pretty, it was not controlled and then we had some highlights that none of the others could match. The Elway/Reeves combo had a lot of resemblence to the Tebow/Fox combo of HCs not trusting their QBs for a whole game and then letting them loose for 10-15 minutes of beautiful football.

    Manning clearly proved that he thrived in spite of the OCs - or rather the OCs rarely mattered. Manning was a marvel with his death by a thousand paper cuts football, and his limit was - as Elway - that mental skill/physical skill worked until the competition was elite. Objectively Manning was better than Elway, and without Reeves Elway's career might have resembled Jay Cutlers.

    Brady's ability to react post snap is abowe the rest, but all in all, Manning is the QB that could most easily have gone anywhere and made the impact he did - it remains to be seen if Brady can. Elway would never have taught DT how to run routes, how to signal, how to read the brakes, because Elway did not start playing smart football until late in his career.
    Broncos Fan Card Revoked!!!
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoFanDK View Post
    It is beautiful with the enschrinement of Elway, but most here seem to forget that Elway was not terribly consistent, it was not pretty, it was not controlled and then we had some highlights that none of the others could match. The Elway/Reeves combo had a lot of resemblence to the Tebow/Fox combo of HCs not trusting their QBs for a whole game and then letting them loose for 10-15 minutes of beautiful football.

    Manning clearly proved that he thrived in spite of the OCs - or rather the OCs rarely mattered. Manning was a marvel with his death by a thousand paper cuts football, and his limit was - as Elway - that mental skill/physical skill worked until the competition was elite. Objectively Manning was better than Elway, and without Reeves Elway's career might have resembled Jay Cutlers.

    Brady's ability to react post snap is abowe the rest, but all in all, Manning is the QB that could most easily have gone anywhere and made the impact he did - it remains to be seen if Brady can. Elway would never have taught DT how to run routes, how to signal, how to read the brakes, because Elway did not start playing smart football until late in his career.
    Your objective opinion is interesting with what was bolded. I would never have thought in a million years that Reeves was necessary for Elway to have success. I'm like most, who feel Reeves held back Elway from being greater. I don't know if it was Elway "not playing smart football" early in his career vs Elway maybe feeling he needed to force things more because of the limited resources he had on his team.

    The advantage Brady had with his career start is he was fully bought into a coach and an offensive philosophy that he aligned with almost his whole career. The coach and system was a perfect marriage with Brady's skillset and philosophy...being fully bought in and committed is a huge part of team success and resulting individual greatness. Tom was fortunate I think this all fell in place for him. Make no mistake this was a team built by Belicheck.

    Manning on the other hand, seemed to create his own system on the go from Day 1. He did not have a coach or staff that tried to stand in his way. Going into the 4th quarter of his first season he had the system rolling and turned that whole franchise around single handedly. Make no mistake this was Manning's team from the get go and both his teams fully bought into him. (This includes the Broncos where Fox/Gase were just supporting acts to Mannings record breaking seasons).

    With Elway, it seems you could look at it three ways:

    1. He came into a situation with a coach that he wasn't aligned with and held him from his true early on potential
    2. Reeves played an integral part in keeping Elway in check early on so that he could keep his team in games and have Elway evolve slowly into what he became.
    3. A little bit of a combination of 1 & 2

    Personally, I still am going to go with #1. I was so frustrated watching the play calling and conservative script for Elway and our offense during the Reeves era. It was not until necessity that Elway was let loose and his unworldly greatness shined, but unlike Tebow, Elway had all the skill in the world to dominant games if given the opportunity and surrounding talent.

    What validates this for me is watching Brett Farve in Green Bay. Yes, Elway could play wreckless at times, but not nearly to the level of Farve. Brett Farve had a coach that let him loose and look what he accomplished. I think if Elway was in a similar situation, Manning would not have retired when he did because he would wanted another year or two to try and catch Elways career passing records.

    I think because Elway proved already he could succeed regardless of coaching and surrounding talent gives him the edge over Manning. I feel the gap between Manning and Brady to be much greater.

    When I see Mahomes improvise ( I think of Elway). When I see Big Ben break from a potential guaranteed sack (I think of Elway). When I saw P. Manning draw a defense offside ( I think of Elway). When I see Drew Brees buy time in the pocket to set up a deep bomb (I think of Elway). When I saw Montana make a 4th quarter comeback ( I think of Elway). When I saw Brady hoist a lombardi (I think of "this one's for Pat" JMFE!)
    Last edited by MarshallMoss; 05-31-2020 at 08:21 AM.
    "He's going to be the #1 receiver, and is going to be a star in this league for a long time" Todd Mcshay on Jerry Jeudy

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