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  1. #46
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    Thanks for keeping this alive...

    But..the Kaep/kneeling issuing is peeking up... please stay far away from that one..deal breaker!
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    Adopted Bronco: Andy Janovich

  2. #47
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    Good to hear that several Broncos took part today.

    https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...est-in-denver/

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JvDub95 View Post
    It's ok to be different, it's ok to have different points of view. That's what makes America great!! We will NEVER have a one mind attitude, everyone will have an issue with something. Police brutality is a real thing that absolutely needs dealt with. But, we can NOT put all police officers on trial either. There are far more good hearted men and women than there are power hungry racists.

    I don't know what the answer is, maybe farther mental examinations. Certainly deeper background checks with regards to complaints on an officer. I do know that completely disbanding the police force is ludicrous. We need law and order.

    One thing that I will always hold onto is the fact that if you don't resist arrest you won't find yourself in life threatening situations. White, black, red, yellow, pink, purple... I don't care what your color is, just don't resist arrest. If you feel like you were wronged, the court will determine that.

    As far as Floyd goes, to my knowledge he refused to get into the police car?? If I'm wrong I apologise but that is my understanding. And if that is indeed the situation, had he just done what the officers asked he'd still be alive. That does not excuse the acts by the cop, he deserves every single second of time and treatment he has coming. The other cops on the scene should have helped George and imo, they are going to get off too light. Nobody deserves to die needlessly by the cops. We have a judicial system that is supposed to fix wrong doing. That is in itself twisted and not perfect but it's far better than almost all countries.

    In the end, like I said earlier resisting arrest doesn't do you any favors. I know it's easy to say and when under the influence your pride and attitude can be swayed. Police brutality needs to stop but we also have to do our own parts and cooperate when asked/demanded to

    My two cents
    First, the police were 100% wrong for the way they handled the arrest of Mr. Floyd...100%. There were many things the officers could have and should have done to contain and "safely" take custody of Mr. Floyd without anyone being injured.

    However, the original and initial cause of the incident was or has been hardly discussed by anyone and it should be addressed to some degree because it is part of this incident and it's final, horrible outcome. I believe it has been stated that Mr. Floyd was attempting to pass counterfeit currency or something to that effect. I'm still not sure how it evolved into the ultimate scene on the street. Was he resisting arrest? Details are needed.

    I was in Quality Assurance / Quality Control for nearly 30 years. When manufacturing a product it's paramount that the quality of the product meets the desired and exact specification requirements whether a company makes toothpicks or space shuttles. They have to work / function as designed so customers are happy and satisfied and the customers will continue to buy the product and not seek another company to obtain the product with the desired level of quality needed.

    The basic function of Quality Assurance / Quality Control is to address a product or process problem by identifying and understanding why the problem occurred and minimize or eliminate it so that poor quality product doesn't go out the door to customers and ultimately that saves money and maintains happy customer relationships which equates to acquiring desired profit margins to stay in business.

    The first question asked by QA / QC when a problem was discovered is: "What is the root cause of the problem? Why did the problem happen? Is there more than one reason the problem happened? In this case, was Mr. Floyd's behavior a criminal act thus making it necessary to have the police involved? I don't know. The investigation should reveal the true answer. If it was a criminal act, there's the "root cause". If no crime is happening, no police show up to make an arrest and end up making a stupid and lethal mistake on a citizen.

    Hopefully, we as human beings will learn from this terrible tragedy and focus to eliminate the possibility of an unnecessary "root cause" ever being created needing to be confronted.

    There are many reasons this ordeal should not have happened. Rest in peace Mr. Floyd.
    Utah Bronco Freak

  4. #49
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    Ok, one cleanup done.

    Sadly, mostly for one persons posts... but any more cleaning needed and this thread is done...which is too bad... for the most part a decent conversation is happening.,

    Yes... The Sins of the Few Cause the Punishment of the Many...if you see something that is detrimental...report it, or ignore it.. don’t quote or respond.., Mids can deal with it and the decent part of the conversation can continue.

    hope you all are safe in this weird 2020...
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    Adopted Bronco: Andy Janovich

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzbodog View Post
    First, the police were 100% wrong for the way they handled the arrest of Mr. Floyd...100%. There were many things the officers could have and should have done to contain and "safely" take custody of Mr. Floyd without anyone being injured.

    However, the original and initial cause of the incident was or has been hardly discussed by anyone and it should be addressed to some degree because it is part of this incident and it's final, horrible outcome. I believe it has been stated that Mr. Floyd was attempting to pass counterfeit currency or something to that effect. I'm still not sure how it evolved into the ultimate scene on the street. Was he resisting arrest? Details are needed.

    I was in Quality Assurance / Quality Control for nearly 30 years. When manufacturing a product it's paramount that the quality of the product meets the desired and exact specification requirements whether a company makes toothpicks or space shuttles. They have to work / function as designed so customers are happy and satisfied and the customers will continue to buy the product and not seek another company to obtain the product with the desired level of quality needed.

    The basic function of Quality Assurance / Quality Control is to address a product or process problem by identifying and understanding why the problem occurred and minimize or eliminate it so that poor quality product doesn't go out the door to customers and ultimately that saves money and maintains happy customer relationships which equates to acquiring desired profit margins to stay in business.

    The first question asked by QA / QC when a problem was discovered is: "What is the root cause of the problem? Why did the problem happen? Is there more than one reason the problem happened? In this case, was Mr. Floyd's behavior a criminal act thus making it necessary to have the police involved? I don't know. The investigation should reveal the true answer. If it was a criminal act, there's the "root cause". If no crime is happening, no police show up to make an arrest and end up making a stupid and lethal mistake on a citizen.

    Hopefully, we as human beings will learn from this terrible tragedy and focus to eliminate the possibility of an unnecessary "root cause" ever being created needing to be confronted.

    There are many reasons this ordeal should not have happened. Rest in peace Mr. Floyd.
    I was in Minnesota when this whole thing started on a week long fishing trip. There was plenty of talk between the locals there and it was widely speculated that he refused to get into the police car. I am guilty of not doing my own homework on the matter but that is where I got my info from. Nowhere did I say that these cops weren't 100% in the wrong. I agreed that they were 100% wrong and the punishment for the other 3 isn't going to be as strong as it should.

    I made no wrong or hurtful comments anywhere in my original statements so if there is anyone who takes offense to " just don't resist arrest " that's on you. There are a lot of cops getting drug through the mud here for the acts of a few and that isn't right either. Talks of defunding and disbanding police force is absolutely insane!

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieMac View Post
    Ok, one cleanup done.

    Sadly, mostly for one persons posts... but any more cleaning needed and this thread is done...which is too bad... for the most part a decent conversation is happening.,

    Yes... The Sins of the Few Cause the Punishment of the Many...if you see something that is detrimental...report it, or ignore it.. don’t quote or respond.., Mids can deal with it and the decent part of the conversation can continue.

    hope you all are safe in this weird 2020...
    Sadly that is also one of the aspects that gets missed in debates like this, where so many makes this a racial issue and not a police brutality issue.

    That a black man in the south in 1960 who meet a white man in a dark alley, would not be racist for being afraid what might happen, though the chance of that white man wanting to harm him was very limited, it would still be prudent to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Unfortunately - especially for an innocent black man - the crime rates and violent crime rates among black are so much higher than other groups that a police officer with a neutral bias on race encountering a black man still has to be much more afraid than when meeting people of other races, or black woman. It is a chicken and egg situation, and calling prudent logical behaviour for racism just destroys a conversation that needs to be had.

    There is no doubt that there is different treatment of people based race, but there are also different social norms based on race, there are different crime patterns, there are different challenges to police, there are different family patterns..... Unless you remove the differences that are based on a verity of factors that has nothing to do with race, you cannot discuss the racist component, and you cannot fix whatever problem is there.

    Unless you figure out the who, the why, the what, the when..... you can only escalate a bad situation. My guess is that 99%+ of all Americans can agree that what happened to George Floyd was unacceptable and should not happen.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by JvDub95 View Post
    One thing that I will always hold onto is the fact that if you don't resist arrest you won't find yourself in life threatening situations. White, black, red, yellow, pink, purple... I don't care what your color is, just don't resist arrest. If you feel like you were wronged, the court will determine that.
    I think it is a bit more complicated than that!
    I recall a situation in 1988/89 where I was pulled over for not indicating a lane change on W. Colfax with at least 500ft to the nearest car. I did not have my insurance papers in the glove department but in a compartment in the trunk, and the two officers were seriously worried that I would have a gun there, and they were on high alert. If that is the mindset with something so trivial as a minor traffic violation, then it is no surprise that police officers operating in inner city high crime/violence areas are on edge and that shootings happens.

    It is a matter of de-escalating the situation - and not throwing gasoline on the fire which seems to happen. How do you stop a cop from being on edge when facing an innercity black kid? How do you stop an innercity black kid that has done nothing wrong from being associated with those that have?

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoFanDK View Post
    I think it is a bit more complicated than that!
    I recall a situation in 1988/89 where I was pulled over for not indicating a lane change on W. Colfax with at least 500ft to the nearest car. I did not have my insurance papers in the glove department but in a compartment in the trunk, and the two officers were seriously worried that I would have a gun there, and they were on high alert. If that is the mindset with something so trivial as a minor traffic violation, then it is no surprise that police officers operating in inner city high crime/violence areas are on edge and that shootings happens.

    It is a matter of de-escalating the situation - and not throwing gasoline on the fire which seems to happen. How do you stop a cop from being on edge when facing an innercity black kid? How do you stop an innercity black kid that has done nothing wrong from being associated with those that have?
    I don't know how you change that, cops have to deal with gang members, armed drug dealers, crack heads on edge themselves, white supremacists that hate all law enforcement. How do you change that?

    How do we as a society get away from that? Cops are on edge because they see all people's of color that have issues and it is very easy to make assumptions when they see certain things on a daily basis.

    It's not right to judge anyone by their color, or what they are wearing or how they look but can you honestly blame them when they have to fight against all these evils?

    I am 100% against police brutality and it needs to be eradicated but we can't completely disband police forces all together. We have to have law and order that's just common sense. It has to come down to police chiefs and Mayers and governors to act on eliminating cops when they are out of line

  9. #54
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    Heres some data for you guys . It's more likely that you will die from a bee or wasp sting if you leave your house unarmed . The media prints negative things because it sells. There are bad cops out there no doubt . Heres my thoughts on this , if you come into contact do exactly what they say . Dont make sudden moves ect...

    I was pulled over one day speeding . The officer came up to the window and asked if I knew how fast I was going . At this time I was carrying an off duty weapon . I didnt tell him I was carrying. He noticed my vest in the back seat . Asked me why I had a vest , I told him where I worked . He then asked for my badge and ID. I told him its behind my seat , now both of my hands are on the wheel . He asked to see them , so I asked him if he wanted me to reach back and get them . He replied yes , go ahead and Everything worked out well.

  10. #55
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    The big issue I have with the "resisting arrest" defense for Chauvin is that he had BOTH of his hands in his pockets as Floyd died. No one in any type of stress or fear or in a self-defense situation has their hands in their pockets.

    A second issue...if the kneeling isn't about the flag or the country then why not kneel during the coin toss instead? I bet at least as many people watch the coin toss as they do the National Anthem and the players can eliminate the biggest argument against kneeling while still having an audience for their issues.

  11. #56
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    If one sheep dog goes bad and kills a sheep, you deal with that sheep dog. You don't blame all the others and get rid of them cause that will only work out well for the wolves.

    That officer should have to pay for what he did. Officers should not be above the law, they should be held to a high standard. But blaming all the other officers and making it like that is the norm with police rather than an exception is not the answer. I would hate to see a world without the police.
    My Boss is a Jewish Carpenter

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by orange crush75 View Post
    Heres some data for you guys . It's more likely that you will die from a bee or wasp sting if you leave your house unarmed . The media prints negative things because it sells. There are bad cops out there no doubt . Heres my thoughts on this , if you come into contact do exactly what they say . Dont make sudden moves ect...

    I was pulled over one day speeding . The officer came up to the window and asked if I knew how fast I was going . At this time I was carrying an off duty weapon . I didnt tell him I was carrying. He noticed my vest in the back seat . Asked me why I had a vest , I told him where I worked . He then asked for my badge and ID. I told him its behind my seat , now both of my hands are on the wheel . He asked to see them , so I asked him if he wanted me to reach back and get them . He replied yes , go ahead and Everything worked out well.

    I have a question for you, and I am just being curious. How would you feel if you were stopped often, and for nothing much? Would you not start to get a little ticked, and even a bit more assertive?

    I do not have a lot of examples in my life, but when I have felt like I was confronted for things that were not warranted (and even verified by others), or asked to do more than others, at some point I got a bit agitated. One example was a boss who did not want me in the position when they took over the VP job, and did everything to make my job more difficult. At some point it becomes hard to maintain calm when it is unjustified, and repetitive. Turns out they were disrespected by many others, but it did not help me in my situation. Had they just been upfront about things, instead of being a thorn, I could have moved on to another job sooner and with fewer hard feelings.

    But here's the other problem... once you feel to be a target, you act different. You get anxious. You overthink things. You do not focus on what is important, because you have this presence in your life that is not appreciated. Human beings tend to feel better when treated fairly. Life is hard enough as it is.

    Not saying "resisting" or even talking back. I learned at a young age that you be on your best behaviour when interacting with police or other authorities. But confrontations of this nature should be objective, fair and professional. Otherwise it can escalate, when escalation is not necessary.

    And to be fair, most police are good at what they do, and do so responsibly and with serious risk. But systemic issues persist in many places, and some people should not be in the jobs they are in, and some need better training.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by lvbronx View Post
    The big issue I have with the "resisting arrest" defense for Chauvin is that he had BOTH of his hands in his pockets as Floyd died. No one in any type of stress or fear or in a self-defense situation has their hands in their pockets.

    A second issue...if the kneeling isn't about the flag or the country then why not kneel during the coin toss instead? I bet at least as many people watch the coin toss as they do the National Anthem and the players can eliminate the biggest argument against kneeling while still having an audience for their issues.
    Circulating counterfeit currency is not a capital offense. Neither is resisting arrest. George Floyd may or may not have been guilty of those. However, Officer Chauvin executed him.

    It is likely that most killed by law enforcement officers are not guilty of a capital offense and, even if they were, it is not the place of law enforcement officers to act as judge, jury and executioner on the spot. The cause of these incidents must be thoroughly, scientifically and relentlessly explored in order to arrive at legally enforceable solutions.

  14. #59
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    Remember the theme of this thread is elway as comments,, we are doing good as obviously the topic inevitably spreads quickly.. we just have to keep it reeled in as we can...
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Circulating counterfeit currency is not a capital offense. Neither is resisting arrest. George Floyd may or may not have been guilty of those. However, Officer Chauvin executed him.

    It is likely that most killed by law enforcement officers are not guilty of a capital offense and, even if they were, it is not the place of law enforcement officers to act as judge, jury and executioner on the spot. The cause of these incidents must be thoroughly, scientifically and relentlessly explored in order to arrive at legally enforceable solutions.
    I agree. And maybe the most common legal defense for police abuse is that the officer feared for his safety and is a factor in why many officers aren't found guilty in a jury trial. IMO there is no way the defenses of "feared for his life" or "resisting arrest" can be used when he had his hands in his pockets while still having a knee on the neck of an accused person. In the other abuse cases I've seen the officers weren't docile with their hands in their pockets.

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