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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieMac View Post
    Ok, one cleanup done.

    Sadly, mostly for one persons posts... but any more cleaning needed and this thread is done...which is too bad... for the most part a decent conversation is happening.,

    Yes... The Sins of the Few Cause the Punishment of the Many...if you see something that is detrimental...report it, or ignore it.. don’t quote or respond.., Mids can deal with it and the decent part of the conversation can continue.

    hope you all are safe in this weird 2020...
    Quote Originally Posted by EddieMac View Post
    Good morning.... little cleaning done.., let’s make sure we don’t start attacking each other here....dialogue not a debate, or argument who’s view is correct
    Quote Originally Posted by EddieMac View Post
    Ok. We Hit the for limits for here will all this talk of race talk of race and crime...

    Curve the conversation another direction, and curb the hostility or the thread needs to be closed..,
    Thanks, EM. Appreciate you.

    Quote Originally Posted by EddieMac View Post
    Like the ideas....but let’s stays llloooooonnnggggggg way away from kneeling ...please..we have had that blowup here before...and it ended ugly..
    Anthems and Protests --- While we certainly understand the frustration by fans on all sides of the discussion, we have decided to keep the Broncos Country message boards separate from politics. Recent events have brought the NFL to the forefront of political debates, but due to the highly emotional and passionate discussion it tends to involve, we think it’s best to continue to keep politics and this forum separate. Yes, the forum is meant for discussion, but we’d like to keep that discussion to football as much as possible. With everything going on in our country, it would be nice to keep our complaints and cheers purely related to football here. If you feel passionately, there are plenty of other outlets available to you to express your opinions. We know this isn’t the most popular decision, but we ask that you respect it. Thank you for understanding. --Broncos Country Message Board Staff

    The above is still posted on the log-in page.


    We've had some complaints for keeping this thread open. We have had some "thank yous" for keeping it open.

    We would like to keep it open for those that want to participate.

    I think it's a very necessary conversation.

    I think it can be done without it going political.

    I think it can be done in a respectful manner.

    I think we can learn a lot from each other.

    We need your cooperation, though. Thanks.
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  2. #122
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    If there was a like button Peanut I would have hit it . Nice post and appreciated. Thanks Eddie for keeping it in focus and going .

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peanut View Post
    Thanks, EM. Appreciate you.



    Anthems and Protests --- While we certainly understand the frustration by fans on all sides of the discussion, we have decided to keep the Broncos Country message boards separate from politics. Recent events have brought the NFL to the forefront of political debates, but due to the highly emotional and passionate discussion it tends to involve, we think it’s best to continue to keep politics and this forum separate. Yes, the forum is meant for discussion, but we’d like to keep that discussion to football as much as possible. With everything going on in our country, it would be nice to keep our complaints and cheers purely related to football here. If you feel passionately, there are plenty of other outlets available to you to express your opinions. We know this isn’t the most popular decision, but we ask that you respect it. Thank you for understanding. --Broncos Country Message Board Staff

    The above is still posted on the log-in page.


    We've had some complaints for keeping this thread open. We have had some "thank yous" for keeping it open.

    We would like to keep it open for those that want to participate.

    I think it's a very necessary conversation.

    I think it can be done without it going political.

    I think it can be done in a respectful manner.

    I think we can learn a lot from each other.

    We need your cooperation, though. Thanks.
    Awesome post.......
    My Boss is a Jewish Carpenter

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzbodog View Post
    Someone stated in an earlier post that humans are not automatically born a racist, bigot, xenophobe, etc.

    In MOST cases starting at the time when a baby's brain starts to develop the ability to process basic thoughts they are an "evolving product" of their parenting, family, friends, religion, neighborhood, city, region and other direct influences, aka "environment", that they are in contact with frequently for extended periods of time.

    I was fortunate to be the son whose father was a 20 year veteran of the US Air Force. I was son #2 of 5, I was born in Alaska, from there my father was stationed in California, Utah, New Jersey and lastly Colorado in 1963, where our family eventually became Denver Bronco fans. As an adult I have also lived in Wyoming and Texas and now back in Utah for the last 41 years. I went to 6 different elementary schools before the sixth grade and I had numerous Black and Latino school mates in everyone of them. I'm a better person for having them in my "environment'.

    First and foremost my "parenting" was excellent and they taught me and my brothers that bad people and good people, sinners and saints, under achievers and over achievers, poor and wealthy exist in all colors and to never think otherwise. And if we pay attention to the "environment" around us the "proof" for that would always be right before our eyes.

    My parents were 100% correct. I'm still seeing the "proof" each and every day! Thank you John Elway.
    I too was a "service brat", and was also born in Alaska.Always great to see such coincidences.

    And I fully concur with your post.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    This is how it should go but this isn’t always how it does go. There was a local story a few years back of a officer pulling over a black guy for something minor. The guy let the cop know that he had a gun in the glovebox, cop asked for his registration and id, he went to reach in his pocket, the cop yelled out he had a gun and shot him 4 times in front of his wife and son in the backseat.

    How does a black person mitigate the fear of a cop? Even when they cooperate and do everything correctly, there’s still a chance that something bad will happen. Oh yeah and the cop wasnt fired or charged for that due to the fact that there was a gun in the car. The rules put in place to prevent this from happening is all too often eliminated by “fear” or something the officer thought might happen.
    I believe you are referring to Philando Castille. The dashcam video from the officer's cruiser for that is on youtube, and some audio can be heard.I thought about linking it, but it is graphic so I didnt. Castille did exactly what he supposed to, kept his hands in plain sight, informed the officer that he had a conceal carry permit. Officer freaked out and killed him.

    It was utterly appalling that even though the officer was charged, he was found not guilty. How it ended that way is beyond me.

  6. #126
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    I am glad Elway said what he did.

    There needs to be more done. There needs to be better screening of who gets to wear a badge. There needs to be better training and mental health support for those who wear the badge. There also needs to be more accountability to those who wear a badge.

    It bothers me as a tax payer that when law enforcement cross the line and get sued that tax payers get to pay the price. Maybe if each time there is a settlement that law enforcement pensions pay a portion of the settlement...maybe then law enforcement will start to feel the same need for accountability that most of the public do.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by MH Stampede View Post
    I believe you are referring to Philando Castille. The dashcam video from the officer's cruiser for that is on youtube, and some audio can be heard.I thought about linking it, but it is graphic so I didnt. Castille did exactly what he supposed to, kept his hands in plain sight, informed the officer that he had a conceal carry permit. Officer freaked out and killed him.

    It was utterly appalling that even though the officer was charged, he was found not guilty. How it ended that way is beyond me.
    I never saw any national coverage on it, this might be a separate occurrence. But I agree the actions are utterly appalling. When you sign on you understand there’s a risk and it’s ok to be scared when going into the field, but that doesn’t mean you can blatantly disregard everything put into place to prevent this. I can’t go to Iraq and just shoot someone because they look suspicious or because I’m afraid they might do something, well I could but it’d end up being a lot worse for me.

    Saw a story just the other day, cops were arresting someone and some people were filming. The cop ran up on them with his gun out saying he’d shoot every last one of them. There was no accompanying story and the video didn’t show any details of why the guy was being arrested but you just can’t do stuff like that.

  8. #128
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    To the mods, I appreciate you keeping this thread open for as long as it has been. This is a conversation that needs to happen and even though this is a football message board, I think this is a conversation that needs to happen in all forums. Ignoring it won’t create change, only discussing the issues and trying to see and understand both sides viewpoints will create the necessary change that desperately needs to happen. Change starts with a discussion and carries over into actions, if this topic can open the eyes of even just one person to act out against oppression and racism then this thread has served a good purpose.

    Thank you moderators!

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadez View Post
    I am glad Elway said what he did.

    There needs to be more done. There needs to be better screening of who gets to wear a badge. There needs to be better training and mental health support for those who wear the badge. There also needs to be more accountability to those who wear a badge.

    It bothers me as a tax payer that when law enforcement cross the line and get sued that tax payers get to pay the price. Maybe if each time there is a settlement that law enforcement pensions pay a portion of the settlement...maybe then law enforcement will start to feel the same need for accountability that most of the public do.
    If it was possible to do in depth psychological studies of police who have habitually committed acts of brutality, then some type of screening might be developed to eliminate candidates for police academy based on that. This approach would require dealing with the issue of racism. Is it psychological or something else? I have heard of surveys that can be used to determine if an individual holds racist views, or is racist. If racism would not be included in psychological screening for prospective police officers, then additional screening for racism could be a possibility. It is all involved in the question of what kind of individuals does society want to entrust with law enforcement and community safety? I doubt if many would think that police work is an appropriate occupation for a racist in a diverse society.

    Without some kind of preemptive screening process, it is still possible to constructively address police brutality and excessive force by replacing certain attitudes with best practices of how best to deal with situations in order to deescalate them. Starting at least ten years ago the Albuquerque Police Department was involved in many instances of police brutality including use of deadly force. The City of Albuquerque had to pay millions in damages for a number of fatal police shootings. There were about thirty of those from 2010 through 2014. ABQ is diverse and racism didn't seem to be an issue as the police brutality was being inflicted on pretty much every group.

    There was much push back from a number of community groups including the previously mentioned lawsuits. The US DOJ got involved by 2013 and investigated APD. One of their findings was that APD had a culture which accepted the use of excessive force. DOJ found that was often not justified and caused much harm in the community. A settlement including a consent decree was entered under which APD was required to enact many reforms in eight different categories under DOJ guidelines which is still going on.

    In spite of the initiation of these efforts, there was another shocking police shooting in 2015 captured in part by lapel cam video that resulted in another fatality, police officers charged with second degree murder and a wrongful death suit settled for $5 million. The officers' trial ended with a hung jury. Since then, it seems that progress has been made to change the culture of excessive force in APD. One measure that can be used to monitor police involved situations is to require all officers to wear lapel cams and keep them active in order to corroborate their reports. Some police officers and agencies resist the requirement of lapel cams.

    There is much that needs to be done to cultivate a civil police force that is not a threat to the health and safety of the public. What causes police brutality needs to be identified and eliminated. Cities, counties and states are in various levels of realization, and are at different stages of reform efforts. National guidelines may be forthcoming. Even so, incidents continue. A Las Cruces police officer was recently charged in the choking death of a suspect resisting arrest which was captured by lapel cam.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    If it was possible to do in depth psychological studies of police who have habitually committed acts of brutality, then some type of screening might be developed to eliminate candidates for police academy based on that. This approach would require dealing with the issue of racism. Is it psychological or something else? I have heard of surveys that can be used to determine if an individual holds racist views, or is racist. If racism would not be included in psychological screening for prospective police officers, then additional screening for racism could be a possibility. It is all involved in the question of what kind of individuals does society want to entrust with law enforcement and community safety? I doubt if many would think that police work is an appropriate occupation for a racist in a diverse society.

    Without some kind of preemptive screening process, it is still possible to constructively address police brutality and excessive force by replacing certain attitudes with best practices of how best to deal with situations in order to deescalate them. Starting at least ten years ago the Albuquerque Police Department was involved in many instances of police brutality including use of deadly force. The City of Albuquerque had to pay millions in damages for a number of fatal police shootings. There were about thirty of those from 2010 through 2014. ABQ is diverse and racism didn't seem to be an issue as the police brutality was being inflicted on pretty much every group.

    There was much push back from a number of community groups including the previously mentioned lawsuits. The US DOJ got involved by 2013 and investigated APD. One of their findings was that APD had a culture which accepted the use of excessive force. DOJ found that was often not justified and caused much harm in the community. A settlement including a consent decree was entered under which APD was required to enact many reforms in eight different categories under DOJ guidelines which is still going on.

    In spite of the initiation of these efforts, there was another shocking police shooting in 2015 captured in part by lapel cam video that resulted in another fatality, police officers charged with second degree murder and a wrongful death suit settled for $5 million. The officers' trial ended with a hung jury. Since then, it seems that progress has been made to change the culture of excessive force in APD. One measure that can be used to monitor police involved situations is to require all officers to wear lapel cams and keep them active in order to corroborate their reports. Some police officers and agencies resist the requirement of lapel cams.

    There is much that needs to be done to cultivate a civil police force that is not a threat to the health and safety of the public. What causes police brutality needs to be identified and eliminated. Cities, counties and states are in various levels of realization, and are at different stages of reform efforts. National guidelines may be forthcoming. Even so, incidents continue. A Las Cruces police officer was recently charged in the choking death of a suspect resisting arrest which was captured by lapel cam.
    Unless he has quit the force, there is an openly racist police officer in Philadelphia.
    Negs are Cowardly Acts of Nonsense. I won’t Back Down.
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    I never saw any national coverage on it, this might be a separate occurrence. But I agree the actions are utterly appalling. When you sign on you understand there’s a risk and it’s ok to be scared when going into the field, but that doesn’t mean you can blatantly disregard everything put into place to prevent this. I can’t go to Iraq and just shoot someone because they look suspicious or because I’m afraid they might do something, well I could but it’d end up being a lot worse for me.

    Saw a story just the other day, cops were arresting someone and some people were filming. The cop ran up on them with his gun out saying he’d shoot every last one of them. There was no accompanying story and the video didn’t show any details of why the guy was being arrested but you just can’t do stuff like that.
    The “ no accompanying story” or contextual details of an event are the concerning and generally biased in their portrayal.

    Not sure if your related story is the same as I am thinking. But in that or a similar case, the video was released that had an officer pointing his gun at the crowd. The reality when the clip starts 10 seconds earlier is a couple officers were isolated from their line, surrounded by an angry crowd and someone had just attacked the officer next to him with a brick to the head and was lying at his feet. Waving his gun at the crowd takes on a different context with the full story.

    I tend to seek out background stories and read or listen to both sides of the info rhetoric. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

    I am more moderate in my beliefs. Reform is needed and long overdue. Too many senseless racist or hate driven reactions and crimes. Things have to change.

    That being said, I also tend to be more supportive of the police and the impossible job they have on a daily basis. They are the ones that live the trauma of seeing the worst of people every day. They are the ones that take on the emotional scars that lead to the high alcoholism, divorce, depression, PTSD, and suicide rates by being front line workers. They are the ones that put a bullseye on their backs and enter too many communities with a “F the Police” mentality for any person of any color wearing “Blue”.

    Want an example of what most police are about. Not all but most! Go look up the video clips of the first couple days of the protest in Denver. The night the shots were fired at the Capital Bldg. The crowd has been screaming in the faces of the cops. They have been vandalizing and chaos. Watch what happens when the shots are heard. Those same police that had verbally abused for hours immediately started stepping in front of protesters. They moved people to safety and went towards the gunfire. Let’s not forget the dedication and character of the police doing their jobs the “right way” in the midst of all this protest and discussion of reform or defunding.

    We can do better as a society. There seems to be a real chance for meaningful change if the radical elements and opinions on both sides of the political spectrum don’t obscure the message.

    But trust goes both ways. Trust and respect needs to be found and developed by the communities for the police just as much as that respect from the police to the people in the communities.

    We will see if this time there can be real change or if the politicians protecting their political agendas and winning votes dilutes the message and true reform once again.

    I am more hopeful this time. Sadly I’ve seen too many protests develop into nothing after the media leaves and the election is over. This time there seems to be a much bigger call for change and acceptance. At least I hope so. I wish us all luck.

  12. #132
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    I believe the more powerful discrimination is socioeconomic. But even then there is a deep psychological tendency that happens when someone is give power over another. Remember the Stanford Phillip Zimbardo Prison Study back in the early 70's?

    This has more to do with human nature than it does 'a few bad apples'. The entire foundation of the system needs reform. Intensive psychological training needs to be implemented. I was shocked to see what kind of training police see nowadays. Look at this ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETf7NJOMS6Y

    Hiring standards must change. ......And who's to say people with non-violent records should be ineligible?

    Bad Apples are in everything and always will be. It's relative. The real problems lie deep in the culture of Law Enforcement. It's not easy to change. That's why -it seems to me- Minneapolis is going to start from scratch. It's likely easier to institute change than, reforming existing strong rooted culture........ and power.

    We are all human. Police are human. No one is perfect. We're all victims and beneficiaries of our environments
    Last edited by dizzolve; 06-09-2020 at 10:35 AM.
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  13. #133
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    I know there will be folks who do not see this as a changing point, given there have been many attempts before to make things better. But something about this rally cry seems stronger. People are speaking up that I would not have expected to hear from. Changes are beginning. And something tells me this movement will carry on, and will be a reminder that certain actions and words will not be tolerated by a much larger % of the population.

  14. #134
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    I look forward to the day when teams can just focus on football and not be forced to conform to a particular view.

    I think Elway’s words were unnecessary and possibly insincere, through no fault of his own.

    There was a lot of unfair backlash to Drew Brees who has every right to not agree with something he feels is disrespectful. It’s a shame he was made to feel he owed an apology to anyone. He didn’t owe the apology.

    I think Elway felt compelled to make a statement he didn’t really want to make. I think he would prefer to just focus on football and that’s okay.

    The focus of the public should be on removing bad cops and changing police department policies. The focus should not be on how athletes, celebrities, and sports organizations support the popular sjw cause.
    Negs are Cowardly Acts of Nonsense. I won’t Back Down.
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  15. #135
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    Certainly agree that many problems are rooted in socioeconomic issues. Too many with limited hope or opportunities. That has to change as a part of the reform IMO.

    Also agree that this time there seems to be substantial influences to move forward in a positive way. It will be interesting to see what actually happens with the money currently being proposed in “defunding” demands and legislation. Jobs, well rounded education, mental health and social worker support in the communities lessen the need for police interaction.

    It will be interesting to see how the communities respond. Less hatred of the police? That hatred and distrust is as ingrained and taught in too many communities just as “shocking” as the above training video. Less us against them mentality, perhaps?

    Maybe more community involvement in cooperation with law enforcement. The power of the public video capturing police aggressions can be used just as easily capturing that assault on the street, intimidation or robbery of a store owner or capturing a shooter on a crowded street. Cooperation. I’m guessing most law enforcement would be happy with calmer, safer and more cooperative work environments.

    As I said, it will be interesting to see what reform will actually look like. In Minnesota, Will the current armed “ community patrols “ be held to the same standards if a tragedy occurs? Will response times and case closures of crimes be negatively effected? Will there be a significant difference in laws and prosecutions of lesser crimes that affect policing standards? Will the organized or truly ruthless of communities be emboldened by the reforms?

    IMO what happens next over the next several months is where transformation has the chance to be the most profound. The outrage expressed over the past couple weeks has been heard. Now some real change can happen if we are honest with our discussions and proposal. Complex problems will not be fixed by bumper sticker Election slogans and wild over-reactions.

    Now the real work begins for all of us. Police and communities alike.

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