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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieMac View Post
    If you posted this in Canada..you would be blasted for using Indian and native in your posts...showing it is so subjective as to what is actually offensive...
    Since you seem to know, what do you think members of Canada's First Nations would say about the term redskin(s)? Are there any names of sports teams in Canada that are controversial?

    If you knew someone you came into contact with often (daily or weekly) calling them by a certain name, and they asked you to call them by some other name, what would you do?

    For thirty-eight years in the classroom I learned the names of all c.150 students in my classes within a week. I started with the name on the roll sheet provided by the front office, but asked each kid if that was what they wanted to be called. There were many changes. Is that subjective and, if so, what's wrong with that?

    One of my jobs on the football staff for preseason practice was to write the player's name on a strip of white athletic tape and stick it on the front of his helmet. One guy wanted his nickname, "Cholo", so I put that down because that's what he wanted. Another guy went by "Booger" and wanted that on his hat. Booger was one of our valedictorians. When we had preseason scrimmages with other teams that year, the coaches from the other team thought we were brutal when we yelled, "Hey, Cholo!" and "Good job, Booger!"
    Last edited by samparnell; 07-08-2020 at 01:38 PM.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieMac View Post
    So by your argument all statues should go? We don’t need any of them? I mean. We can go read, right?
    I do not recall having said all statues should go.

    I do not recall having said we don't need any statues.

    If you can quote me otherwise, please let me know.

    Can we go read?

    Ulysses S. Grant's statue in Golden Gate Park was torn down by some vandals who said he had owned a slave which is true, but he didn't buy that individual and could have obtained some much needed cash if he had sold him, but he freed him instead. Of course Grant went on to win the Civil War and crushed the KKK when he was president, but ignorance leads to stupid acts. If Grant could come back, he would probably find the toppling of his statue amusing and would probably say that if that's what it takes to finally bring an end to the Civil War, then fine.
    Last edited by samparnell; 07-08-2020 at 01:46 PM.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    But if the statue is already there, and we're already honouring them, why should we now tear it down? Removing history doesn't erase it, and people are more likely to learn the good and bad about someone if we allow them to stand. I'M NOT in any way talking about Confederate statues, frankly I'm not sure why there would be statues to honour those who committed treason?

    Another Canadian example, McGill University is one of the most prestigious universities in Canada, it actually might be the top University in Canada. It's got a long and distinguished list of graduates which includes 12 Nobel Laureates and 145 Rhodes Scholars. It was founded in 1821. So it's both extremely historic and prestigious.

    There are now some suggesting that the name must be changed because James McGill, the person who donated the land and the initial money for the school in his will, once owned slaves. This was in the late 1700's and early 1800's when it was unfortunately allowed.

    So do we rename the 200 year old academic institution because the founder did something that was allowed at the time?

    How far do we go in ripping down statues and changing names? What things do we consider acceptable and allow to stand and what do we deem is unacceptable and we remove? Who makes the decision? Because we can probably find reasons to remove honours for every single person if we look hard enough, or we judge harshly enough.
    They could change the name to Saul Goodman University.

    This thread is supposed to be about the Washington Redskins' study of a possible name change. In passing I mentioned that George Preston Marshall's statue was quietly removed from old RFK Stadium recently. His legacy is well documented, and I've spoken about that.

    I'm glad you distinguish statues of confederate leaders. There are still a number of them in the US Capitol in DC. And, yes, they were all traitors to the United States and don't belong in the Capitol.

    What, if anything, to do about names of things in Canada is up to Canadians. You asked about statues of the Famous Five, and I wondered about the necessity of statues when it comes to preserving history.

    As far as statues are concerned, I have some favorites: the 6'10" tall bronze of Zeus/Poseidon in the National Museum in Athens; the statue of the Charioteer and his four horse team in the museum at Delphi; Michelangelo Buonarroti's statue of David in the Academy of Art in Florence, and his Pieta in St. Peters; Benvenuto Cellini's statue of Perseus brandishing the head of Medusa in front of the town hall in Florence. I've had the luck to be able to stand before those great works of art and enjoy their beauty.

    I'm not a supporter of angry mobs tearing down statues that don't belong to them personally. If one is deemed offensive by those in charge of public works, there are procedures and steps that can be taken to remedy the situation. Some statues have been torn down which is vandalism. Some have been removed by local governments like the confederate statues in Richmond and the ones of Don Juan de Onate in NM.
    Last edited by samparnell; 07-08-2020 at 02:11 PM.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  4. #34
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    i refuse to call them by anything other then the Washington NFL franchise till there name is changed. i wont use that disgusting term.

    that is all

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
    i refuse to call them by anything other then the Washington NFL franchise till there name is changed. i wont use that disgusting term.

    that is all
    Is it worth keeping the franchises associated with Native Americans as homage though?

    Washington Natives?Maybe that is too generic? Do we associate them with the tribes in the Virginia area? Washington Powhatan, Monacan, or Cherokee?

    Or do we totally drop anything native american related and name them something like "Washington Redtails" <-- my personal favorite (of the names that have been suggested) because I'm a huge ww2 junkie.
    Last edited by Joshua2585; 07-08-2020 at 03:18 PM.

  6. #36
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    I disagree with argument being made by the anti-Redskins people, but I do support a name change.

    I think all team names referencing Native Americans should go away. A group of people, especially one that has historically been oppressed, should not be reduced to a mascot.

    That being said, no one can actually prove that Native Americans as a whole are offended by the Redskins name.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Since you seem to know, what do you think members of Canada's First Nations would say about the term redskin(s)? Are there any names of sports teams in Canada that are controversial?

    If you knew someone you came into contact with often (daily or weekly) calling them by a certain name, and they asked you to call them by some other name, what would you do?

    For thirty-eight years in the classroom I learned the names of all c.150 students in my classes within a week. I started with the name on the roll sheet provided by the front office, but asked each kid if that was what they wanted to be called. There were many changes. Is that subjective and, if so, what's wrong with that?

    One of my jobs on the football staff for preseason practice was to write the player's name on a strip of white athletic tape and stick it on the front of his helmet. One guy wanted his nickname, "Cholo", so I put that down because that's what he wanted. Another guy went by "Booger" and wanted that on his hat. Booger was one of our valedictorians. When we had preseason scrimmages with other teams that year, the coaches from the other team thought we were brutal when we yelled, "Hey, Cholo!" and "Good job, Booger!"
    The Edmonton Eskimos are under pressure to change their name now. Eskimo is no longer an acceptable term for Inuit Canadians. However I don't believe Eskimo was ever, or has ever been considered a slur, and I believe Alaska still refers to some people as American Eskimos.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    They could change the name to Saul Goodman University.

    This thread is supposed to be about the Washington Redskins' study of a possible name change. In passing I mentioned that George Preston Marshall's statue was quietly removed from old RFK Stadium recently. His legacy is well documented, and I've spoken about that.

    I'm glad you distinguish statues of confederate leaders. There are still a number of them in the US Capitol in DC. And, yes, they were all traitors to the United States and don't belong in the Capitol.

    What, if anything, to do about names of things in Canada is up to Canadians. You asked about statues of the Famous Five, and I wondered about the necessity of statues when it comes to preserving history.

    As far as statues are concerned, I have some favorites: the 6'10" tall bronze of Zeus/Poseidon in the National Museum in Athens; the statue of the Charioteer and his four horse team in the museum at Delphi; Michelangelo Buonarroti's statue of David in the Academy of Art in Florence, and his Pieta in St. Peters; Benvenuto Cellini's statue of Perseus brandishing the head of Medusa in front of the town hall in Florence. I've had the luck to be able to stand before those great works of art and enjoy their beauty.

    I'm not a supporter of angry mobs tearing down statues that don't belong to them personally. If one is deemed offensive by those in charge of public works, there are procedures and steps that can be taken to remedy the situation. Some statues have been torn down which is vandalism. Some have been removed by local governments like the confederate statues in Richmond and the ones of Don Juan de Onate in NM.

    I don't necessarily disagree with you on any of this, but I think we're on a slippery slope at this point in time, which was more so my overarching point.

    I believe it's right for Washington to change their nickname, but I'm not necessarily in agreement with the angry mob on other things.

    And yes this thread has taken an odd turn, myself being one of the perpetrators of that, but I think everyone for keeping it respectful and having a rationale debate.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    The Edmonton Eskimos are under pressure to change their name now. Eskimo is no longer an acceptable term for Inuit Canadians. However I don't believe Eskimo was ever, or has ever been considered a slur, and I believe Alaska still refers to some people as American Eskimos.
    I wondered about that one.

  10. #40
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    Canadian football

    Edmonton Eskimos (CFL)

    hockey

    Chicago Blackhawks (NHL)
    Chilliwack Chiefs (BCHL) - While retaining their name, the team has retired their mascot "Chief Wannawin". The chief of a local First Nation applauds the move but is disappointed mascot was part of team for 20 years.[18]
    Frölunda Indians (Swedish Hockey League)
    Johnstown Chiefs (ECHL) — Named after the Charlestown Chiefs, the fictional team in the movie Slap Shot (partially shot in the real team's home city of Johnstown, Pennsylvania). Team moved and became Greenville Road Warriors in 2010.
    Macklin Mohawks, Macklin, Saskatchewan
    Malmö Redhawks (Swedish Hockey League)
    Moose Jaw Warriors (WHL)
    Morden Redskins, (SEMHL)
    Pilsen, Czech Republic (Czech Extraliga)[14]
    Portland Winterhawks (WHL)
    Seattle Thunderbirds (WHL)
    Spokane Chiefs (WHL)
    Whitley Warriors (NIHL), Whitley Bay, United Kingdom. The women's team is the "Squaws".

    Lacrosse

    Alberta Lacrosse Association
    Rocky Mountain Lacrosse League
    Junior B Lacrosse
    Edmonton Warriors - Indian head logo
    Ontario Lacrosse Association
    Major Series Lacrosse:
    Brooklin Redmen, Whitby, Ontario - Logo incorporates the Indian head used by the NHL Blackhawks
    Six Nations Chiefs, Six Nations of the Grand River
    St. Regis Indians, St. Regis Mohawk Reservation, New York
    Senior B Lacrosse
    Six Nations Rivermen - Logo is an Indian paddling a canoe
    Junior A Lacrosse
    Burlington Chiefs, Burlington, Ontario
    Mississauga Tomahawks
    Junior B Lacrosse
    Elora Mohawks, Elora, Ontario
    Quebec Senior Lacrosse
    Kahnawake Mohawks - Cartoon Indian head logo
    Kahnawake Tomahawks - Indian head logo
    West Coast Senior Lacrosse Association (WSCLA), British Columbia - The Association logo features an "Indian Head"
    Coquitlam Adanacs - Although "adanac" is Canada spelled backward, their logo features a First Nations woman.
    Langley Warriors
    North Shore Indians

    Guess a lot of names need changing now..
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieMac View Post
    Canadian football

    Edmonton Eskimos (CFL)

    hockey

    Chicago Blackhawks (NHL)
    Chilliwack Chiefs (BCHL) - While retaining their name, the team has retired their mascot "Chief Wannawin". The chief of a local First Nation applauds the move but is disappointed mascot was part of team for 20 years.[18]
    Frölunda Indians (Swedish Hockey League)
    Johnstown Chiefs (ECHL) — Named after the Charlestown Chiefs, the fictional team in the movie Slap Shot (partially shot in the real team's home city of Johnstown, Pennsylvania). Team moved and became Greenville Road Warriors in 2010.
    Macklin Mohawks, Macklin, Saskatchewan
    Malmö Redhawks (Swedish Hockey League)
    Moose Jaw Warriors (WHL)
    Morden Redskins, (SEMHL)
    Pilsen, Czech Republic (Czech Extraliga)[14]
    Portland Winterhawks (WHL)
    Seattle Thunderbirds (WHL)
    Spokane Chiefs (WHL)
    Whitley Warriors (NIHL), Whitley Bay, United Kingdom. The women's team is the "Squaws".

    Lacrosse

    Alberta Lacrosse Association
    Rocky Mountain Lacrosse League
    Junior B Lacrosse
    Edmonton Warriors - Indian head logo
    Ontario Lacrosse Association
    Major Series Lacrosse:
    Brooklin Redmen, Whitby, Ontario - Logo incorporates the Indian head used by the NHL Blackhawks
    Six Nations Chiefs, Six Nations of the Grand River
    St. Regis Indians, St. Regis Mohawk Reservation, New York
    Senior B Lacrosse
    Six Nations Rivermen - Logo is an Indian paddling a canoe
    Junior A Lacrosse
    Burlington Chiefs, Burlington, Ontario
    Mississauga Tomahawks
    Junior B Lacrosse
    Elora Mohawks, Elora, Ontario
    Quebec Senior Lacrosse
    Kahnawake Mohawks - Cartoon Indian head logo
    Kahnawake Tomahawks - Indian head logo
    West Coast Senior Lacrosse Association (WSCLA), British Columbia - The Association logo features an "Indian Head"
    Coquitlam Adanacs - Although "adanac" is Canada spelled backward, their logo features a First Nations woman.
    Langley Warriors
    North Shore Indians

    Guess a lot of names need changing now..
    There's a Calgary high school that has the nickname of Warriors, and there's some pressure now for the school board to make the school change the name even though the football helmet logo is a centurion helmet and the school mascot is a Roman centurion named Maximus.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    There's a Calgary high school that has the nickname of Warriors, and there's some pressure now for the school board to make the school change the name even though the football helmet logo is a centurion helmet and the school mascot is a Roman centurion named Maximus.
    Must be a Carthaginian issue. The Romans called them red, hence the three punic wars.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by samparnell View Post
    Must be a Carthaginian issue. The Romans called them red, hence the three punic wars.
    Cmon Sam.....everyone knows that.



















  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    There's a Calgary high school that has the nickname of Warriors, and there's some pressure now for the school board to make the school change the name even though the football helmet logo is a centurion helmet and the school mascot is a Roman centurion named Maximus.
    Their mascots' names should be the most famous centurions in Roman history, Lucius Vorenus and Titus Pullo, the only two Julius Caesar mentioned by name.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua2585 View Post
    Is it worth keeping the franchises associated with Native Americans as homage though?

    Washington Natives?Maybe that is too generic? Do we associate them with the tribes in the Virginia area? Washington Powhatan, Monacan, or Cherokee?

    Or do we totally drop anything native american related and name them something like "Washington Redtails" <-- my personal favorite (of the names that have been suggested) because I'm a huge ww2 junkie.
    I'd drop the native American base in general I heard a rumor they like warriors and I hope they don't have a native American style logo

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