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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    Who says we have to overpay him? If giving him a big contract today is overpaying, what do you think is going to happen if he repeats, or God forbid has a better year in 2020? That number is only going to go up. People in Elway's position are paid to get the best players for the best price. Occasionally he has to gamble. He can look at the film for the past 4 years and decide Simmons is going to be more like the player he was in 2019 than the player he was in 2016 going forward, or he can decide that's not the case let him play on the tag and move on. But if Simmons repeats or improves upon 2019 it's going to cost us a lot more money than if we re-sign him now, because right now we aren't bidding against anyone else. Next year will be a different story.
    You can franchise tag him again, then there is the transition tag you can use after that, we can control Simmons for the foreseeable future in a worst-case scenario where he does it again and his value rapidly rises like some seem to be worried about. If Simmons becomes the highest-paid safety today at 15 million per year, how much more expensive would he get ? Who pushes that price tag up ? I don't see any significant value increase if he does it again unless Williams, Harris, Fitspatrick, and Adams all take turns at resetting the market in the next year, which is extremely doubtful.

    Also, tagging, trading, and replacing through the draft or free agency is something you could entertain as well if something doesn't go right moving forward. In the hypothetical where you don't sign him now, he does it again and his value increases significantly, you would assume a trade partner would emerge for some handsome compensation right ? I like Simmons but was his performance so much of a difference between us being 7-9 or 4-12, I don't think so and I don't think anyone outside of Denver would see him as that cornerstone type player. He was drafted here, played well here, and they will want to keep him, but he isn't elite in my opinion and I don't see him as a must hold onto for the future success of the team.

  2. #17
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    From everything I have seen and what I have seen Vic say we should pay him. Have seen a lot of youtube videos talking about and showing why Simmons is one of the best at his position.

    Can understand the prove it one more year line of thought but imo he has earned his big contract.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    You can franchise tag him again, then there is the transition tag you can use after that, we can control Simmons for the foreseeable future in a worst-case scenario where he does it again and his value rapidly rises like some seem to be worried about. If Simmons becomes the highest-paid safety today at 15 million per year, how much more expensive would he get ? Who pushes that price tag up ? I don't see any significant value increase if he does it again unless Williams, Harris, Fitspatrick, and Adams all take turns at resetting the market in the next year, which is extremely doubtful.

    Also, tagging, trading, and replacing through the draft or free agency is something you could entertain as well if something doesn't go right moving forward. In the hypothetical where you don't sign him now, he does it again and his value increases significantly, you would assume a trade partner would emerge for some handsome compensation right ? I like Simmons but was his performance so much of a difference between us being 7-9 or 4-12, I don't think so and I don't think anyone outside of Denver would see him as that cornerstone type player. He was drafted here, played well here, and they will want to keep him, but he isn't elite in my opinion and I don't see him as a must hold onto for the future success of the team.

    I disagree with your evaluation of Simmons, I think he IS elite, relative to the other safeties in the league. I also disagree with the statement in bold. Fitzpatrick, Adams and Derwin James ARE going to reset the market, and we will wish we had Simmons at 14 or 15 per.

    It seems like you are always on the side of the team squeezing it's advantage over the player, every time. Apparently the Broncos should never pay any player market value. Is there anyone on the roster you wouldn't argue using the tag rather than reaching a deal, even if the deal is top money? That's a serious question. Who do you think the Broncos should actually pay rather than try to tag and leverage over and over again?
    All it takes to win is doing whatever it takes to win: COMMITMENT

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    I disagree with your evaluation of Simmons, I think he IS elite, relative to the other safeties in the league. I also disagree with the statement in bold. Fitzpatrick, Adams and Derwin James ARE going to reset the market, and we will wish we had Simmons at 14 or 15 per.

    It seems like you are always on the side of the team squeezing it's advantage over the player, every time. Apparently the Broncos should never pay any player market value. Is there anyone on the roster you wouldn't argue using the tag rather than reaching a deal, even if the deal is top money? That's a serious question. Who do you think the Broncos should actually pay rather than try to tag and leverage over and over again?
    I guess that is where we differ. I think he is really good based on the play last year, but an elite player for me is someone who does it at a high level for an extended period of time, Simmons hasn't. I understand the thinking though, and you will be proven right in your opinion when the Broncos hand him an elite level contract in the near future. I just personally don't agree with it, but I still think he will go on to play well. I just don't like seeing an overreaction to short-term success with long-term contracts like we had with Brandon Marshall and Darien Stewert.

    Also on your question, I guess you are referring to my comments on Lindsay, and now Simmons ? The Lindsay argument is a whole different situation where a player with his accrued years has pretty much never been extended, plays a position where he has no leverage to start with, and I would be fine with paying him the market value, but as fans you lot think the market value is more than the market actually is, so I don't think that is comparable and fair to say I "always" do something. Also I am not saying Simmons doesn't deserve market value, I actually think Simmons is worth what he is making now on the tag at the top of the market, I just don't think after one year you commit to that long-term, that is my point I was making. Also, I think Sutton when extension time rolls around will be very deserving of market value huge money, then depending on what happens with Risner and Chubb moving forward, they would be the next homegrown talents up to potentially cash in, followed hopefully by Lock.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    Who says we have to overpay him? If giving him a big contract today is overpaying, what do you think is going to happen if he repeats, or God forbid has a better year in 2020? That number is only going to go up. People in Elway's position are paid to get the best players for the best price. Occasionally he has to gamble. He can look at the film for the past 4 years and decide Simmons is going to be more like the player he was in 2019 than the player he was in 2016 going forward, or he can decide that's not the case let him play on the tag and move on. But if Simmons repeats or improves upon 2019 it's going to cost us a lot more money than if we re-sign him now, because right now we aren't bidding against anyone else. Next year will be a different story.
    Under Vic Fangio, Simmons excels in the scheme.
    Under VJ he did not, therefore as long as Vic is installing his system then Iím all for it but if itís another coach with a different system in the near future then I oppose.

  6. #21
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    "Letswin", have we argued before about Pro Football Focus and their grading systems ? Correct me if I am wrong, but if it was you and you do place stock into their grading of players, I don't, do you agree with them grading him as a one year wonder in 2019 ? I am not at all allowing that to form my opinion on Simmons, but for those who do like their gradings, they rated Simmons as a 60 in 2018, but then a 90 in 2019, some food for thought.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    I guess that is where we differ. I think he is really good based on the play last year, but an elite player for me is someone who does it at a high level for an extended period of time, Simmons hasn't. I understand the thinking though, and you will be proven right in your opinion when the Broncos hand him an elite level contract in the near future. I just personally don't agree with it, but I still think he will go on to play well. I just don't like seeing an overreaction to short-term success with long-term contracts like we had with Brandon Marshall and Darien Stewert.

    Also on your question, I guess you are referring to my comments on Lindsay, and now Simmons ? The Lindsay argument is a whole different situation where a player with his accrued years has pretty much never been extended, plays a position where he has no leverage to start with, and I would be fine with paying him the market value, but as fans you lot think the market value is more than the market actually is, so I don't think that is comparable and fair to say I "always" do something. Also I am not saying Simmons doesn't deserve market value, I actually think Simmons is worth what he is making now on the tag at the top of the market, I just don't think after one year you commit to that long-term, that is my point I was making. Also, I think Sutton when extension time rolls around will be very deserving of market value huge money, then depending on what happens with Risner and Chubb moving forward, they would be the next homegrown talents up to potentially cash in, followed hopefully by Lock.


    Extension time is here, boss. Sutton has 2 years left. Worst case scenario we should extend him before his last year. Same with Risner and Chubb. I wouldn't be mad at all if Lock wins 10 games, throws 3,800, 35td, 15int, and Denver extends him with 2 years left on his contract.
    We have to stop waiting to the end of everyone's contract to offer extensions. Having a year or 2 left on a player's contract allows you to spread the signing bonus out, and since you're advancing the money a year or two, you can get away with slightly cheaper contracts. If we wait until Sutton, Fant, Jeudy, Hamler, Chubb, Lock, Lindsay and Risner all finish their contracts, that's potentially massive signings all done within 3 years of each other. That's nuts. Unless we hit huge drafts for the next 3 years, we're going to need ALL of those guys to play out second contracts. And you got Simmons we need to re-sign now, didn't even mention Von, or Cush (who, if he plays at all above average, we need to keep), or whoever we'll have at LT or RT or DL. So many contracts all stacked up, at some point there has to be some sort of spread. That Von and Chubb come off the books at the same time is ridiculous. We are going to end up with the same situation we had in 2015 where we lost 2 starters on defense because we had 5 starters' contracts all ending at the same time.
    Last edited by Letswinplz77; 07-13-2020 at 09:30 PM.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    "Letswin", have we argued before about Pro Football Focus and their grading systems ? Correct me if I am wrong, but if it was you and you do place stock into their grading of players, I don't, do you agree with them grading him as a one year wonder in 2019 ? I am not at all allowing that to form my opinion on Simmons, but for those who do like their gradings, they rated Simmons as a 60 in 2018, but then a 90 in 2019, some food for thought.
    Why couldn't I just look at that as improvement?
    All it takes to win is doing whatever it takes to win: COMMITMENT

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    Personally I hope we stop waiting to the end of everyone's contract to offer extensions. Having a year or 2 left on a player's contract allows you to spread the signing bonus out, and since you're advancing the money a year or two, you can get away with slightly cheaper contracts. If we wait until Sutton, Fant, Jeudy, Hamler, Chubb, Lock, Lindsay and Risner all finish their contracts, that's potentially massive signings all done within 3 years of each other. That's nuts. Unless we hit huge drafts for the next 3 years, we're going to need ALL of those guys to play out second contracts. And you got Simmons we need to re-sign now, didn't even mention Von, or Cush (who, if he plays at all above average, we need to keep), or whoever we'll have at LT or RT or DL. So many contracts all stacked up, at some point there has to be some sort of spread. That Von and Chubb come off the books at the same time is ridiculous. We are going to end up with the same situation we had in 2015 where we lost 2 starters on defense because we had 5 starters' contracts all ending at the same time.
    That is the great thing about a salary cap and keeping parity in a league. When you hit on a draft class or two and you develop them into star players, at some point you will have to choose who to let go, and who to pay. I guess one positive of Elway being so bad at drafting over a period of time there is that Simmons is the only player from a period of what, 3 or 4 years who will be up for a big extension ? I was once a critic of Elway for not signing guys sooner actually, Malik Jackson being the main one on that, but Elway does seem to not have that approach.

    I do think it is a case by case basis though, for example with Lindsay there is no reason to do it. I also think it is very premature to mention all those guys who haven't played yet or are no where near extension time, way premature. Plus if you are hoping Hamler, Jeudy, and Sutton all develop into top players at their position, along with Fant at tight-end, there is a zero percentage chance all sign extensions to be here long term. In a perfect world where they all develop into stars, you can maybe keep two into their second contract, possibly three, depending on how the cap situation is that time. But no way do you have three high paid receivers plus a tight-end, I'd put those hopes out of your head right now to save disappointment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
    Why couldn't I just look at that as improvement?
    I wouldn't, and I don't think most would who are not looking at it with those Orange and Blue tinted shades on, but you are free too. I just don't understand calling Simmons an elite player, and arguing against him being a one year wonder if you put stock into Pro Football Focus and their gradings, they clearly would say he is. Or do you only put stock into it when it suits your chosen stance on an argument ? Genuine question.
    Last edited by johnlimburg; 07-13-2020 at 10:39 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    That is the great thing about a salary cap and keeping parody in a league.
    The NFL has had parody since 1970.


  11. #26
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    I have faith in Elway that he'll lock Simmons up long term. He knows (and we know) how much of a stud he is.

  12. #27
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    According to Klis, talks have stalled since April.

    Worst case scenario, Simmons plays on the tag and we do this all over again next offseason.

    Not re-signing Simmons would be a mistake by our FO. All-Pro safeties don't grow on trees.
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  13. #28
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    I really am shocked a deal didn't get done. I wonder if the Broncos value Simmons at around the 11 million franchise tag price, and Simmons was pushing for the 15 million per year ? The Broncos surely understand he hasn't proven that yet type of deal for the long-term yet, and maybe they want him to prove it again first. I also think 15 million per year is for true difference makers, which I don't think Simmons is right now. He is great at his job, but does he change the outcome of games ? I don't think so.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlimburg View Post
    I really am shocked a deal didn't get done. I wonder if the Broncos value Simmons at around the 11 million franchise tag price, and Simmons was pushing for the 15 million per year ? The Broncos surely understand he hasn't proven that yet type of deal for the long-term yet, and maybe they want him to prove it again first. I also think 15 million per year is for true difference makers, which I don't think Simmons is right now. He is great at his job, but does he change the outcome of games ? I don't think so.
    Interceptions change games and he lead our team with 4. Next closest was 2. He was second on the team in tackles which you don't want to see but is also good. He can definitely change games.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
    Interceptions change games and he lead our team with 4. Next closest was 2. He was second on the team in tackles which you don't want to see but is also good. He can definitely change games.
    Yeah interceptions change games, and Simmons had a couple of nice plays in that regard. However for the type of money he is commanding, he isn't that ballhawk you fear, no one is game planning against where Simmons is. I would say Simmons is opportunistic with his takeaways. Last year two of them were gimmes on tipped or floated passes,anyone could have caught them, but the other two were nice plays, one was a game-changer while the other was in a blowout loss in garbage time. I think his best asset is those long arms where he can break up passes.

    On the tackle statistics, yes, I don't want to hear them used to support Simmons while the same person will also discredit them for another player they don't like. If you want to use them across the board as a consistent indicator of greatness, that is fine, but you don't get to pick and choose as others do with the PFF ratings as well. I also never said he wasn't a good tackler. In 2018 he was widely inconsistent, but don't tell me what I do or don't want to see because I said in 2019 he was great as a tackler and a pass defender. I just don't think a guy who performed great for one year is elite, and I don't think anyone would consider him a game-changing type of player, outside of Denver of course.

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