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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
    Ahh yes, but they said the same great things about Willie Middlebrooks and Deltha O'neal and all the other CBs we've drafted through the years. I'm going to have to actually see Shanahan land a successful impact CB before I'll ever believe it will happen. He tends to reach for all his CBs (outside Deltha Oneal) so, we'll see if this year is the year that we get the CB monkey off our back.

    As a fan, I hope so. As a realist, I'm not holding my breath.

    Well you know what? Just be happy that they werent 1st round picks... Im sure we would all be frustrated if Shanahan took Darrent Williams in the first round...

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttejuco
    Well you know what? Just be happy that they werent 1st round picks... Im sure we would all be frustrated if Shanahan took Darrent Williams in the first round...
    Holy CR*P! I never thought of that.

    But, if all the players Shanahan targeted in the 1st round were taken by #25 (which happened) who would he have drafted?

    Would Shanahan just have reached for the next guy on his list and sent in Darrent Williams's card? Was there even anyone higher on his draft board who was taken between #25 & #56? If so, I haven't heard. Perhaps someone ought to ask Shanahan.

    If he had not been able to trade down out of the 1st round there's a good chance you would be RIGHT!

    My God! I guess the draft COULD have been worse!

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornbroncofan
    Leseur and Browner are being moved to safety so we don't have as many corners as we thought.

    Fair enough, but no one taken with the 25th pick would've started. There's no one they could've taken at that spot who realistically had any shot of beating out the veterans on the roster. They take Reggie Brown. And do what with him?? He competes with Darious for what?? Darious is a starter. Maybe not now, but he's got more than enough ability to do so. In fact, there were a ton of guys taken ahead of him that shouldn't have been. I'm sure his career will say so. But, again, there was no one there that was gonna' beat out a veteran loaded team. If the team can only break with 46 guys (which is what I understand to be the case), there's no room to put a hotshot. He saturated the corner position and addressed it with due prudence. And most of these guys can't argue against that. I remember how many of you ripped that position up one side and down the other after the Colts game. Oh ya, they deserved it too. But regardless, that position needed addressed and the FO did just that. There's 7 ends that can make the roster alone. 6 DT's, I lost track at LB. Remember, a lot of posters love Chuckwurah. It's like that at every position. Jackson at WO. Everywhere.

    Sure, they could've drafted someone like Reggie Brown, but if he was gonna' add bodies to a position that's in need of a talent injection and a time to do it, the Denver FO did it at the right time. That position's been a heel for FAR too long. The guys he took don't stink either. These DC's they brought in got strong game.

  4. #19
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    Thumbs up Whine and cry!!

    Give the front office some credit. With a top five defense and a top five offense, where did the team need the most help? Special teams is the weakest part of the team. This draft provided four players who can have an influence on the kick and return aspects of the special teams. All the CBs are fast and Clarett will have to play special teams to start. The selection of Williams was partially based on the first hand experience at the Senior Bowl, where he faced top competition and looked very good. If the special teams move up into the top ten, the offense and defense will also be improved. This draft is very important for this year, unlike most drafts. Remember, this team was seven points from being 13-3 last year and last year was a year of transition on both offense and defense. With a little injury luck and some maturing of the young starters, the Broncos could look excellent, even with the hard schedule. Let's hope for the best and enjoy the team. Be positive and quit whining about decisions you couldn't have made anyway. Once again, the Bronco organization has more qualified personnel with alot more information than a bunch of wannabes complaining on a message board. Go Broncos!!!!!!

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorado69
    Give the front office some credit. With a top five defense and a top five offense, where did the team need the most help? Special teams is the weakest part of the team. This draft provided four players who can have an influence on the kick and return aspects of the special teams. All the CBs are fast and Clarett will have to play special teams to start. The selection of Williams was partially based on the first hand experience at the Senior Bowl, where he faced top competition and looked very good. If the special teams move up into the top ten, the offense and defense will also be improved. This draft is very important for this year, unlike most drafts. Remember, this team was seven points from being 13-3 last year and last year was a year of transition on both offense and defense. With a little injury luck and some maturing of the young starters, the Broncos could look excellent, even with the hard schedule. Let's hope for the best and enjoy the team. Be positive and quit whining about decisions you couldn't have made anyway. Once again, the Bronco organization has more qualified personnel with alot more information than a bunch of wannabes complaining on a message board. Go Broncos!!!!!!
    Excellent response! While the naysayers and boobirds lambast the more positive of us Bronco fans for what they regard as less intelligent arguments, they have lowered themselves into the very status into which they have endeavored to place us. The Broncos organization has made some dramatic moves this offseason. While critics have raved over the drafts of some other teams and how they were superior, we have pillaged and plundered other teams and ended up with much of their talent, IMO.

    They say this is no way to go to the Super Bowl. Well, I can personally remember when the Oakland Raiders went to the Super Bowl using the very same tactics. They picked up rejects and misfits everywhere and moulded them into a team no one could stop. (I hate those memories! )

    As I said before, with this one, Shanny could end up helping to hold up the Lombardi trophy before the cameras, or he could go down in flames. But at least he had the leadership and guts to do something about the team's perceived weaknesses!

    So the naysayers of old, who cried and belly-ached about how the Broncos were doing nothing, have been replaced by new cry babies who are now complaining that the Broncos are doing the wrong things. Well, let them submit their résumés to the Broncos organization, and maybe Bowlen will fire all the FO, coordinators, and coaches, and hire them instead. Hell, we may end up with a dynasty that way!

    Or we may end up with the Raiders' defense and the Cardinals' offense. Shades of the 1960s.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttejuco
    Here

    It's fairely well made.
    Thanks its a good description.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe
    Excellent response! While the naysayers and boobirds lambast the more positive of us Bronco fans for what they regard as less intelligent arguments, they have lowered themselves into the very status into which they have endeavored to place us. The Broncos organization has made some dramatic moves this offseason. While critics have raved over the drafts of some other teams and how they were superior, we have pillaged and plundered other teams and ended up with much of their talent, IMO.

    They say this is no way to go to the Super Bowl. Well, I can personally remember when the Oakland Raiders went to the Super Bowl using the very same tactics. They picked up rejects and misfits everywhere and moulded them into a team no one could stop. (I hate those memories! )

    As I said before, with this one, Shanny could end up helping to hold up the Lombardi trophy before the cameras, or he could go down in flames. But at least he had the leadership and guts to do something about the team's perceived weaknesses!

    So the naysayers of old, who cried and belly-ached about how the Broncos were doing nothing, have been replaced by new cry babies who are now complaining that the Broncos are doing the wrong things. Well, let them submit their résumés to the Broncos organization, and maybe Bowlen will fire all the FO, coordinators, and coaches, and hire them instead. Hell, we may end up with a dynasty that way!

    Or we may end up with the Raiders' defense and the Cardinals' offense. Shades of the 1960s.
    Small problem with this theory. It's NOT the "nay-sayers" who are saying that Darient Williams is NOT projected as a starter EVER! It's Ted Sundquist, Broncos GM, in an interview on THIS site!

    If it is admitted that special teams are and have been a serious problem the question is WHY? In addition to problems with punting, the answer has been mostly poor coverage. Yes, other teams may have better returners, but as I think Rod Smith said, you expect your returner to make 1 guy miss, but you can't expect him to make 11 guys miss! Both average return yards and the opponents starting position are mostly determined NOT by the returner (although having a talented returner helps) but by the coverage team.

    Why has Denver's coverage team been so piss-poor over years? Answer: because of the mediocre players playing on that team. And who are they? They're not your starting team! They're the reserves! I.E. special teams have been poor because Denver's backups haven't done the job!

    You see this serious lack of depth in other areas as well. Why else does the team go 6-2 practically every year in the 1st half and fade down the stretch? Injuries! And what happens when players get injured, as they always do in the NFL -- this isn't badmitton -- the reserves start! The Roc Alexanders of the team step in and try to do the job!

    Only they haven't done it the last 6 years! Why haven't they done it? Because they aren't good enough! And why aren't they good enough? Because Shanahan has drafted poorly! He tries to make up for it by hiring FAs to start, in general but you can't afford FAs to be your backups! They cost too much. So when starters go down, there isn't the overall team depth to carry the team into the playoffs and to the SB.

    It's actually worse than I'm making out, since some critical positions HAVEN'T suffered serious injuries in recent years. Rod Smith and Jake Plummer are probably the 2 most irreplaceable players on the team, and they BOTH started every game last year and seldom have missed any in recent years! In general, the Broncos OL has stayed reasonably healthy and Champ Bailey played without injury last year as well. Thus, the top 3 Broncos all were available all year! Can you imagine what the record would have been if injuries had hit any of those three -- for whom NO adequate replacements exist? Compare this with the Pats, who were able to win the SB while using BACKUP CBs and seem to take injuries without losing because of superb overall team depth!

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cugel
    Small problem with this theory. It's NOT the "nay-sayers" who are saying that Darient Williams is NOT projected as a starter EVER! It's Ted Sundquist, Broncos GM, in an interview on THIS site!

    If it is admitted that special teams are and have been a serious problem the question is WHY? In addition to problems with punting, the answer has been mostly poor coverage. Yes, other teams may have better returners, but as I think Rod Smith said, you expect your returner to make 1 guy miss, but you can't expect him to make 11 guys miss! Both average return yards and the opponents starting position are mostly determined NOT by the returner (although having a talented returner helps) but by the coverage team.

    Why has Denver's coverage team been so piss-poor over years? Answer: because of the mediocre players playing on that team. And who are they? They're not your starting team! They're the reserves! I.E. special teams have been poor because Denver's backups haven't done the job!

    You see this serious lack of depth in other areas as well. Why else does the team go 6-2 practically every year in the 1st half and fade down the stretch? Injuries! And what happens when players get injured, as they always do in the NFL -- this isn't badmitton -- the reserves start! The Roc Alexanders of the team step in and try to do the job!

    Only they haven't done it the last 6 years! Why haven't they done it? Because they aren't good enough! And why aren't they good enough? Because Shanahan has drafted poorly! He tries to make up for it by hiring FAs to start, in general but you can't afford FAs to be your backups! They cost too much. So when starters go down, there isn't the overall team depth to carry the team into the playoffs and to the SB.

    It's actually worse than I'm making out, since some critical positions HAVEN'T suffered serious injuries in recent years. Rod Smith and Jake Plummer are probably the 2 most irreplaceable players on the team, and they BOTH started every game last year and seldom have missed any in recent years! In general, the Broncos OL has stayed reasonably healthy and Champ Bailey played without injury last year as well. Thus, the top 3 Broncos all were available all year! Can you imagine what the record would have been if injuries had hit any of those three -- for whom NO adequate replacements exist? Compare this with the Pats, who were able to win the SB while using BACKUP CBs and seem to take injuries without losing because of superb overall team depth!
    So, going along with your reference to a "small problem," how does this post of yours disagree with what I said? Cugel, there is a monstrous difference between you and some here who feel they have to bash everything about the Broncos organization. I haven't seen that in you, so if you are taking what I said personally, you need not do so. You and I disagree occasionally, but I don't see anything irrational about your posts.

    Edit: And I have had plenty to say about what JR refers to as the Broncos DAFTing and the lack of depth in key positions. And, you're right, that will factor into the special teams, too. I will say, though, that I probably view of their FA moves a little more favorably.
    Last edited by topscribe; 05-22-2005 at 10:19 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe
    Excellent response! While the naysayers and boobirds lambast the more positive of us Bronco fans for what they regard as less intelligent arguments, they have lowered themselves into the very status into which they have endeavored to place us. The Broncos organization has made some dramatic moves this offseason. While critics have raved over the drafts of some other teams and how they were superior, we have pillaged and plundered other teams and ended up with much of their talent, IMO.

    They say this is no way to go to the Super Bowl. Well, I can personally remember when the Oakland Raiders went to the Super Bowl using the very same tactics. They picked up rejects and misfits everywhere and moulded them into a team no one could stop. (I hate those memories! )

    As I said before, with this one, Shanny could end up helping to hold up the Lombardi trophy before the cameras, or he could go down in flames. But at least he had the leadership and guts to do something about the team's perceived weaknesses!

    So the naysayers of old, who cried and belly-ached about how the Broncos were doing nothing, have been replaced by new cry babies who are now complaining that the Broncos are doing the wrong things. Well, let them submit their résumés to the Broncos organization, and maybe Bowlen will fire all the FO, coordinators, and coaches, and hire them instead. Hell, we may end up with a dynasty that way!

    Or we may end up with the Raiders' defense and the Cardinals' offense. Shades of the 1960s.
    the problem with your philosophy is looking at how easily the Raiders were decimated after that SB run. Look at the fact that they were also loaded with draft picks and did a horrible job with all of them and it has left them flat on their face.

    Look at the Eagles for an example. They draft very well and they have a deep and talented team. They have staying power, not because they pilage and plunder but because they can let go of players when they cost too much and replace them with solid young players that produce. We simply can't do that. Not because we wouldn't like to but because we don't have the young players to replace them with. So as an end result we have poor depth and we ending up paying players too much which kills our cap situation every year.

    IMO this is due to our drafting strategy. We seem to pick guys every year at some point in the draft that are considered reaches; in many cases serious reaches. Most of these players don't pan out and we are stuck without the proper amount of young developing talent on the team. This is a big problem....... This is why I get so frustrated with drafts like this year. In my opinion it is our drafting that has kept us from going back to the big one....... Way to many big time flops and not enough players even sticking on the team.....

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by myoung
    the problem with your philosophy is looking at how easily the Raiders were decimated after that SB run. Look at the fact that they were also loaded with draft picks and did a horrible job with all of them and it has left them flat on their face.

    Look at the Eagles for an example. They draft very well and they have a deep and talented team. They have staying power, not because they pilage and plunder but because they can let go of players when they cost too much and replace them with solid young players that produce. We simply can't do that. Not because we wouldn't like to but because we don't have the young players to replace them with. So as an end result we have poor depth and we ending up paying players too much which kills our cap situation every year.

    IMO this is due to our drafting strategy. We seem to pick guys every year at some point in the draft that are considered reaches; in many cases serious reaches. Most of these players don't pan out and we are stuck without the proper amount of young developing talent on the team. This is a big problem....... This is why I get so frustrated with drafts like this year. In my opinion it is our drafting that has kept us from going back to the big one....... Way to many big time flops and not enough players even sticking on the team.....
    I agree with a lot of what you said, but using the Eagles as an example IMO isn't a very good one. Sure, they've been in the hunt for many years now , however the NFC East and the NFC as a whole just aren't what they're cracked up to be. We'd have been 13-3 playing the Eagles' schedule last year. NTM, they have the one important piece of the puzzle that we don't - a franchise QB. Eventually either using Washington's draft pick or our own we've got to get a franchise QB that we can start from scratch with, teach him our system, and let him lead this team. Like him or not, Plummer was "damaged goods" when he got here. He had 8 seasons of more picks than TDs and "poor decision making" following him in. I don't think it matters if he leads Denver to the SB, folks will still bring up his past over and over.
    Last edited by HORSEPOWER 56; 05-23-2005 at 09:20 AM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by HORSEPOWER 56
    I agree with a lot of what you said, but using the Eagles as an example IMO isn't a very good one. Sure, they've been in the hunt for many years now , however the NFC East and the NFC as a whole just aren't what they're cracked up to be. We'd have been 13-3 playing the Eagles' schedule last year. NTM, they have the one important piece of the puzzle that we don't - a franchise QB. Eventually either using Washington's draft pick or our own we've got to get a franchise QB that we can start from scratch with, teach him our system, and let him lead this team. Like him or not, Plummer was "damaged goods" when he got here. He had 8 seasons of more picks than TDs and "poor decision making" following him in. I don't think it matters if he leads Denver to the SB, folks will still bring up his past over and over.

    First three years ago the Eagles lost to the Bucs in the NFC championship game and the Bucs went on to destroy the Raiders in the SB. We have since seen the Panthers and the Eagles give the AFC hell in the SB. I don't think the overall gap has been as big the past 4 years as it was last year. I do believe the AFC is stonger but they have not been so much stronger for the entire time the Eagles have been near the top.

    Second the Eagles do have a franchise QB; but he has not always been viewed that way; in fact most years it is their D which has carried them to the championship game. This was McNabbs breakout year; to the franchise level. I could have used the Ravens as an example for drafting to build a team as well. They have a stronger core than us and have the ability to let a guy go when he is too expensive. We simply can't do that because we have drafted so poorly over the past several years.

    I do not agree that we would have been 13-3. We lost this year to the Bengals, Falcons, Raiders, Chiefs, Chargers, and Jaguars. You can't make an argument that these teams are far superior to the teams we would have played in the NFC. We lost to very average teams for the most part. We have to be realistic we lost games that we had no business losing.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by myoung
    the problem with your philosophy is looking at how easily the Raiders were decimated after that SB run. Look at the fact that they were also loaded with draft picks and did a horrible job with all of them and it has left them flat on their face.
    What Raiders are you talking about? Which Super Bowl run? I'm talking about the Raiders all the way through the '70s and '80s. Yup, after 20 years, they finally fell on their face.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe
    What Raiders are you talking about? Which Super Bowl run? I'm talking about the Raiders all the way through the '70s and '80s. Yup, after 20 years, they finally fell on their face.
    Fair enough. I thought you were referring to the recent Raiders.

    I think part of the problem is that money has made character issues of today more of an issue than they were 20 to 30 years ago. Then guys still needed football. Anymore that is not the case after a few seasons and character problems have grown to be a much larger concern (IMO).

    this is why I get scared of picking up rejects and problem children from other teams. We have been burned by D Carter and Fat ass while doing this. Granted I don't think most of the guys have those types of issues and most of our issues are injury related not character but we picked up our fair share of problem children this offseason....... (Clarett (What only a 4.8 in the 40? Crap!!!!! I give up.....), Williams (what I never saw the team rules.... this sucks I am watching my team in the bowl game), Warren (Is it wrong to threaten to hurt the other teams QB?), SaurKraut (Alright guys funny joke but really it is close to Preseason who took my roids??? This is getting serious), Brown (I can't come to Denver until I interview their medical staff and find out if they have warmed seats at the end of the bench.... I am not trying to get hurt but when it happens I better be taken care of)....

    I think the whole thing could be great or we could have a few team problems next year. I hope it turns out great. At least we don't have to deal with TO this offseason.....

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by myoung
    Fair enough. I thought you were referring to the recent Raiders.

    I think part of the problem is that money has made character issues of today more of an issue than they were 20 to 30 years ago. Then guys still needed football. Anymore that is not the case after a few seasons and character problems have grown to be a much larger concern (IMO).

    this is why I get scared of picking up rejects and problem children from other teams. We have been burned by D Carter and Fat ass while doing this. Granted I don't think most of the guys have those types of issues and most of our issues are injury related not character but we picked up our fair share of problem children this offseason....... (Clarett (What only a 4.8 in the 40? Crap!!!!! I give up.....), Williams (what I never saw the team rules.... this sucks I am watching my team in the bowl game), Warren (Is it wrong to threaten to hurt the other teams QB?), SaurKraut (Alright guys funny joke but really it is close to Preseason who took my roids??? This is getting serious), Brown (I can't come to Denver until I interview their medical staff and find out if they have warmed seats at the end of the bench.... I am not trying to get hurt but when it happens I better be taken care of)....

    I think the whole thing could be great or we could have a few team problems next year. I hope it turns out great. At least we don't have to deal with TO this offseason.....
    I can't think of a more entertaining way to write this than you did. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And you have some valid concerns. And I, too, have a lingering bitter aftertaste from those misfits you mentioned (those jokers from KC and Washington, respectively).

    However, there is a monstrous difference in character between the Browns transplants and those guys. One of Andre Patterson's notable comments was that these men are "good persons," as well as ball players. Myers is no problem whatsoever, and he ought to lend quality depth to the DL. And Brown and Ekuban have proven themselves as good players when healthy.

    Therein lies a key. Will they stay healthy? Also, will Warren, regarded as an underachiever, get his act together on the field? Will Sauerbrun get his act together off the field? The latter--Sauerbrun--concerns me more. If Warren bombs, we are sure to score on any number of Brown, Ekuban, Pryce, and Myers. No worries there, IMO. But Sauerbrun is a hit or miss--if he goes, there goes our punting and kickoff game, unless Ernster steps up, and as a rookie he is still an unknown quantity.

    Oh, and regarding Clarett, his most recent times have been between 4.5 and 4.6, and I assume he is working his way down to his college time of 4.45. So he isn't so sluggish as you might imagine.

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