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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncosfan247
    tough decision, but I guess i'd have to still go with Plummer, because I'd rather see them use our first round picks next year on Wide Receiver and a Offensive Lineman, being we have 2 guys at those positions that are getting up there in age. If not, best available player is always fine with me.
    Yes, and were age not a factor, there is still a pressing need.
    As it stands right now, we have a dearth of experienced depth.
    One injury in a strategic place (Rod Smith, Tom Nalen), and we're 8-8.
    Maybe it's not quite that severe, but it could affect our record dramatically.

    IMHO.

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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe
    Well, you may not see "loads of talent," but your opinion is not shared by certain very knowledgeable people in the profession. For instance, Bill Walsh has compared him to Joe Montana. You know, Walsh, who coached Montana? I also do not share your opinion, and I have watched Jake play ever since he was a freshman in college. And no, I did not attend his alma mater, nor am I a fan of that school. Quite the contrary, ASU is an arch-rival to may U. of Arizona.

    Now, as to '"WHY NOT?" . . . . We lack quality depth on the Oline, and our best receiver is getting old. Since we have a QB with immense talent, as knowledgeable people have asserted, that is "WHY NOT."

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    What does comparing really do? Shanny compared Brian Griese to Montana as well. You know, Shanahan, who coached Elway? Was Shanahan right on that comparison? NO. I'm sorry, but Walsh isn't either. BTW, how are things going in Arizona with the new coach and all? Not being a smart a$$, just liked the guy when he was at OU.
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  3. #18
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    Ya never know where the best quotes will come from...

    The back and forth concerning Jake is interesting. He certainly makes the games exciting and that probably fuels a lot of this. One minute its a left handed pass on the 5 and the next it's a bullet between three defenders as he's rolling out. He's got moxie and it takes you a long way. But as we're talking about knowledgable people and comparisons etc... I'm reminded of what one analyst said last year. It's not verbatim but it's damn close:
    "Jake is on the verge of stardom. Next year will be his third in this system and he's got all the tools and enough talent around him that if he's healthy he'll have a breakout year. I'm talking the elite in the league. An MVP season."

    You're probably thinking it was some local guy or a big Bronco fan. Actually it was a national guy who never says anything good about Denver. And uh yeah, this guy could play a little ball: Joe Theisman. He said it on ESPN during a game and I nearly fainted.
    Last edited by DiehardinAlaska; 06-13-2005 at 05:52 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman_44b
    What does comparing really do? Shanny compared Brian Griese to Montana as well. You know, Shanahan, who coached Elway? Was Shanahan right on that comparison? NO. I'm sorry, but Walsh isn't either. BTW, how are things going in Arizona with the new coach and all? Not being a smart a$$, just liked the guy when he was at OU.
    I know Shanny was high on Griese, and he was RIGHT. Remember Griese having the highest rating in the league and making the Pro Bowl? That Griese apparently developed some emotional problems down the road had no effect on Shanny's initial evaluation of Griese. (I am not a fan of Shanny's DAFTing, as JR puts it, but this is not a good example of that failure.)

    Anyway, I am now faced with the choice of whether I will give Walsh or you the credibility on the issue. Hmmmm . . . .

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    Regarding Stoops, he is bringing in some beasts and rebuilding the team. The last coach left us a disaster, and it is taking a while to make something out of nothing. But Stoops is doing it. They will surprise some people this year. I'm not saying they will be playing for the National Championship. They may not even finish in the upper half of their own conference this year. But they will surprise some people.

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    Last edited by topscribe; 06-14-2005 at 03:46 AM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe
    I know Shanny was high on Griese, and he was RIGHT. Remember Griese having the highest rating in the league and making the Pro Bowl? That Griese apparently developed some emotional problems down the road had not effect on Shanny's initial evaluation of Griese. (I am not a fan of Shanny's DAFTing, as JR puts it, but this is not a good example of that failure.)

    Anyway, I am now faced with the choice of whether I will give Walsh or you the credibility on the issue. Hmmmm . . . .

    -----

    Regarding Stoops, he is bringing in some beasts and rebuilding the team. The last coach left us a disaster, and it is taking a while to make something out of nothing. But Stoops is doing it. They will surprise some people this year. I'm not saying they will be playing for the National Championship. They may not even finish in the upper half of their own conference this year. But they will surprise some people.

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    Heres what I think happened with the Walsh saying what he did about Plummer. Do Walsh and Shanny have any connection with each other? Ask yourself that. Are walsh and Shanny friends? Shanny got all kinds of heat on him for signing Griese to the big contract and he flops. In steps Plummer, a solid vetern QB with sub par stats out of Arizona. Walsh hears the heats on Shanny and says Jake will thrive in Denver and the heats off Shanny for awhile.Walsh helps out a friend. I'm a Cornhuskers fan ,Tom Lemming says we had the best recuiting in 2005. Well, he's good friends with Bill Callahan. Now was the 2005 class the best in the nation?Well, we will see about that.But I have seen that Jake Plummer is no Joe Montana. I really think we have a solid core of wide outs and don't see any reason for 20 ints. I really don't see anything wrong with a good rookie coming in to push Plummer.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman_44b
    Heres what I think happened with the Walsh saying what he did about Plummer. Do Walsh and Shanny have any connection with each other? Ask yourself that. Are walsh and Shanny friends? Shanny got all kinds of heat on him for signing Griese to the big contract and he flops. In steps Plummer, a solid vetern QB with sub par stats out of Arizona. Walsh hears the heats on Shanny and says Jake will thrive in Denver and the heats off Shanny for awhile.Walsh helps out a friend. I'm a Cornhuskers fan ,Tom Lemming says we had the best recuiting in 2005. Well, he's good friends with Bill Callahan. Now was the 2005 class the best in the nation?Well, we will see about that.But I have seen that Jake Plummer is no Joe Montana. I really think we have a solid core of wide outs and don't see any reason for 20 ints. I really don't see anything wrong with a good rookie coming in to push Plummer.
    That is the problem with a wild imagination borne of the lack of facts. Walsh said that about Jake as Jake was coming out of college. You know, when Shanny had nothing to do with Jake?

    You have seen Jake play. Good. I have seen him play since the time he was a freshman at Arizona State University.

    I'll go ahead and take Walsh's word for it, in addition to what I have observed. Despite your expertise.



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  7. #22
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    What i gotta say is we dont know if Matt will have a good season and if he doesnt he loses place in where hes drafted. Also, i don't think that Plummer is the best guy to mentor Leinart.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe
    That is the problem with a wild imagination borne of the lack of facts. Walsh said that about Jake as Jake was coming out of college. You know, when Shanny had nothing to do with Jake?

    You have seen Jake play. Good. I have seen him play since the time he was a freshman at Arizona State University.

    I'll go ahead and take Walsh's word for it, in addition to what I have observed. Despite your expertise.



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    Is that all you have? Walsh said that about Plummer when he was a free agent to! THE GOD or Walsh as you call him said, "Plummer will thrive in the Broncos system." Has he?! No! I can't see your point, sorry. Your a homer! I'm not. You have been screwed by the system. O LINE CHECK, RB"S CHECK, WR"S CHECK. PLUMMER"S ARM, NOT CHECK or his brain for that matter
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman_44b
    Is that all you have? Walsh said that about Plummer when he was a free agent to! THE GOD or Walsh as you call him said, "Plummer will thrive in the Broncos system." Has he?! No! I can't see your point, sorry. Your a homer! I'm not. You have been screwed by the system. O LINE CHECK, RB"S CHECK, WR"S CHECK. PLUMMER"S ARM, NOT CHECK or his brain for that matter
    Well, you have managed to misquote me, call me names, and make fun of me. For someone who says in his profile he is a "football expert," you have generally exposed yourself as an ignorant ass who doesn't know a football from a suppository. You have no documentation for your argument, whatever your argument is. (It is hard to sort from your gibberish.) Rather, you try to denigrate me. It not only shows your lack of intelligence and your immaturity, but it is unsuccessful because you can't even shine my shoes when it comes to debate or to knowledge.

    I will no longer answer your posts. I prefer to communicate with intelligent people. I am putting you on ignore.

    P.S. You had better take another Prozac and watch your blood level. You sound as if you're about to blow.



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    Last edited by topscribe; 06-14-2005 at 02:52 AM.

  10. #25
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    Walsh compared Plummer to Montana when Jake was coming out of college... and wanted to draft him. SINCE then, I doubt VERY much that Bill would make any comparisons between the two.

    If the season goes poorly... I wouldn't be surprised if Denver makes a move to draft a 1st round QB. If the season goes poorly, we will have to accept the fact that its a rebuilding time.

    By the way... SIX years isn't that long of a time period. I have documented over and over again how our record stands ABOVE any team that has lost their HoF QB.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman_44b
    Is that all you have? Walsh said that about Plummer when he was a free agent to! THE GOD or Walsh as you call him said, "Plummer will thrive in the Broncos system." Has he?! No! I can't see your point, sorry. Your a homer! I'm not. You have been screwed by the system. O LINE CHECK, RB"S CHECK, WR"S CHECK. PLUMMER"S ARM, NOT CHECK or his brain for that matter
    You now have zero credibility. The man breaks Elway's single season passing record, and you act like he's the next Tim Couch. Ridiculous.

    Can he get better? Absolutely. Is he a failure as you imply? Not at all.

    You must be the fan he was giving that specia salute to. If not, you should be.

  12. #27
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    There are reasons people don't take the "broke Elways passing record" thing very seriously. For one, it doesn't mean squat when you end up throwing a 32.1 QB rating in the first half of the playoff game.

    But the MAIN reason this isn't really looked upon as something, is it that is NOT a coincidence it came in the SAME year as the re-emphasis of the bumping-beyond-five-yard-rule. Its not a coincidence that Jake threw for 4,000 yrds in the SAME year that MORE QBS IN THE NFL THREW FOR 4,000yrds than ANY OTHER year in NFL History. Its not a coincidence that Jake threw for more TDs than he ever has, in the SAME YEAR that more TDs were thrown than ANY OTHER YEAR.. AND the TD Passing record was broken. The Rule emphasis made it a CAKE to throw the ball last year. WRs were running wild and free. QBs were having a hayday with DBs. There are TONS of QBs that threw more touchdowns than Elway.. TONS...even when Elway was playing, he was never the leader in TD passes. But everyone knew that Elway was SPECIAL. Throwing TDs doesn't make you special.

    Just like the posts by majik about Dayne. Just because you were special in College, doesn't make you a special player in the NFL. As of RIGHT NOW... Jake Plummer has not shown he is a SPECIAL player in the NFL. He's an average player in the NFL. Make all the "excuses" you want for him. Talk about his time in arizona and say thats what hurt him if you want. Doesn't matter THE reasons. The facts are, as of right now, Jake is at best an average QB in the NFL that has only ONE playoff win in his 8 years starting. As of RIGHT NOW.. he has more INTs thrown, than TDs.

    Can that change? Absolutely. But its ok that Jake is average. Average QBs win SBs, as long as they have the supporting cast around him. Dilfer and Johnson both won a SB in recent years. There have been lots in history.

    But if THIS year goes poorly.... and Denver has a High draft pick from either us or the Redskins... I wouldn't be surprised at all if we draft a TOP QB in the draft. Depending on how high the pick.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman_44b
    John was only in his third year in 1985. He didn't even play that much as a rookie. It was really only his second year as a starter. And lets face it,you could see loads of talent in Elway even when he was playing bad.You can't get rid of a player like that. This is going to be Plummers 9th year in the league and I see a solid player,but not tons of talent. I would take a chance on a rookie QB in the draft next year.I would take a chance on Vince Young. I would take a chance just like the Broncos did in making the trade to get Elway. We have two first round picks next year and an AVERAGE STARTING QB. WHY NOT? Anything wrong with getting alittle crazy from time to time.
    What's wrong with getting a "little crazy" is that it's a sure ticket to a 6-10 season! THAT'S what!

    Too many fools seem to think that because the Broncos can't win more than 10 games a season, they should blow up the team and start over from -- say 4-6 wins!

    How much fun would it be if you watched the team go 3-5 at home and 2-6 on the road or something?! How much wailing and gnashing of teeth would there be then?!

    It's a LONG season for fans of loser teams like the Bengals and Lions and Cardinals, etc. Nobody in Phoenix pays much attention to the Cardinals -- it's too painful, rather like the Rockies here. How much time do you spend talking or thinking about the Rockies? Or the Nuggets (until George Karl)? I don't think I could stand to watch all the Broncos games if they were to lose 10 games in a season. It makes my entire week too depressing and I find myself still thinking about it on Wednesday.

    I don't live and die with the team, but you know what I mean.

    Personally, 10-6 is a LOT better than giving up the franchise to get a rookie QB who might lead you to a championship in 4 years time. That's a LONG time to wait!

    Fortunately, it's about as likely to happen as for Katherine Heigl to give me a lap dance.

  14. #29
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    Plummer is an adequate QB for the time being and does have a winning record in our system. I don't think we need Leinart or Young and that those picks should be spent elsewhere.

    I would however, like to see a QB drafted in maybe the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th round that actually might be worth a damn. Unless one of the backups we have now really establishes himself in camp and shows the ability to actually lead the team in Plummer's absence, I really think we need to draft a good backup QB. Obviously I'm not the only guy who feels this way, or the FO wouldn't have offered Jeff Garcia a job. Of all the positions that we currently lack solid depth, QB is #1.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!!
    There are reasons people don't take the "broke Elways passing record" thing very seriously. For one, it doesn't mean squat when you end up throwing a 32.1 QB rating in the first half of the playoff game.

    But the MAIN reason this isn't really looked upon as something, is it that is NOT a coincidence it came in the SAME year as the re-emphasis of the bumping-beyond-five-yard-rule. Its not a coincidence that Jake threw for 4,000 yrds in the SAME year that MORE QBS IN THE NFL THREW FOR 4,000yrds than ANY OTHER year in NFL History. Its not a coincidence that Jake threw for more TDs than he ever has, in the SAME YEAR that more TDs were thrown than ANY OTHER YEAR.. AND the TD Passing record was broken. The Rule emphasis made it a CAKE to throw the ball last year. WRs were running wild and free. QBs were having a hayday with DBs. There are TONS of QBs that threw more touchdowns than Elway.. TONS...even when Elway was playing, he was never the leader in TD passes. But everyone knew that Elway was SPECIAL. Throwing TDs doesn't make you special.

    Just like the posts by majik about Dayne. Just because you were special in College, doesn't make you a special player in the NFL. As of RIGHT NOW... Jake Plummer has not shown he is a SPECIAL player in the NFL. He's an average player in the NFL. Make all the "excuses" you want for him. Talk about his time in arizona and say thats what hurt him if you want. Doesn't matter THE reasons. The facts are, as of right now, Jake is at best an average QB in the NFL that has only ONE playoff win in his 8 years starting. As of RIGHT NOW.. he has more INTs thrown, than TDs.

    Can that change? Absolutely. But its ok that Jake is average. Average QBs win SBs, as long as they have the supporting cast around him. Dilfer and Johnson both won a SB in recent years. There have been lots in history.

    But if THIS year goes poorly.... and Denver has a High draft pick from either us or the Redskins... I wouldn't be surprised at all if we draft a TOP QB in the draft. Depending on how high the pick.
    I like this guys. He makes sense, unlike the rest of you......well, don't want to go there again. Everybody can bash me all they want about Plummer. Joe Montana he will never be. BOTTOM LINE. (P.s. I hope Jake proves me wrong. I'll eat crow. Lots of it to.
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