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  1. #61
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    Spending two first rounders on one guy is f'ing INSANE. This is why the redskins are always in so much trouble. You build a successful football team around the core of the game....the offensive and defensive lines....and go from there. Marino, Brady, Manning, Green, Warner, ALL of them are or were made because of outstanding protection. Oh yeah, and some kid named Roethlisberger. You know what happens when you can focus on nothing but the star positions (WR, QB, RB, etc)? You suck, that's what. How many rings does Vinny Testaverde have? How about Barry Sanders? How about John Elway before he got an actual team around him?

    Blowing two first round picks on one guy at a position that isn't even one of the greatest needs on the team is moronic.
    I bleed orange and blue!!!


    Rest in peace, Darrent.

    I adopted Domenik Hixon!!


  2. #62
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    Thumbs up YABA! (Sorry, Painter)

    Quote Originally Posted by Perry1977
    Spending two first rounders on one guy is f'ing INSANE. This is why the redskins are always in so much trouble. You build a successful football team around the core of the game....the offensive and defensive lines....and go from there. Marino, Brady, Manning, Green, Warner, ALL of them are or were made because of outstanding protection. Oh yeah, and some kid named Roethlisberger. You know what happens when you can focus on nothing but the star positions (WR, QB, RB, etc)? You suck, that's what. How many rings does Vinny Testaverde have? How about Barry Sanders? How about John Elway before he got an actual team around him?

    Blowing two first round picks on one guy at a position that isn't even one of the greatest needs on the team is moronic.
    The Colts have the QB. The Pats have the team.
    Who won the Super Bowl?



    -----

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoInATL
    I didn't mean straight ahead speed. Can the kid scramble like McNabb, Elway, Chris Leak?

    He could run a 4.9 but be as mobile as Danny Wureful or Theisman.
    Woah, Chris Leak isn't very mobile buddy, in fact, it is one of his weaknesses. Leak will have to work on his quickness to succeed in Urban Meyer's offense, but I believe that Meyer will use Leak more as a thrower than a runner as he did Alex Smith. In fact, ESPN's spring report has Leak doing way more passing in a spread offense, whereas Smith used the spread offense to run a hybrid-option/passing scheme. Leak rarely was called on to run last season, and for good reason. His sack numbers put him at a negative gain and rate on the season, which doesn't say much for mobility.

    The mobile quarterbacks that are considered draft prospects are Vince Young, Reggie McNeal, Brad Smith and Tyler Palko, (at least those are the ones that come to mind ) and Palko needs to cut down on his sack total to really take advantage of his athleticsm come draft day. Chris Leak should not be placed in that category, and his mobility is much in line with Leinart's, as both are pocket passers, as is other favorites Hackney and Whitehurst.
    Last edited by OhNoKoolAid; 06-29-2005 at 09:36 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe
    The Colts have the QB. The Pats have the team.
    Who won the Super Bowl?



    -----

    Excellent example. Manning does have very good protection around him, though.
    I bleed orange and blue!!!


    Rest in peace, Darrent.

    I adopted Domenik Hixon!!


  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momentum
    Also, I want to add to everyone screaming "Noooo we need Plummer for 4 seasons!"

    What do you do for the next 4 seasons? Ignore the fact that we have no quality youth or depth at the position? I would only expect such ludicrous behavior from Mike Shannahan himself. We all know Elway won his first when he was 36... but guess what?! THERE IS ONLY ONE JOHN ELWAY, HE'S NOT COMING BACK AND JAKE PLUMMER IS NOT HIS REINCARNATION.

    Regardless of whether Plummer STAYS here for the duration of his contract, its very unlikely he will be a starter that long. Someone in Dove Valley wanted Jeff Garcia and Gus Ferotte.... not exactly your average starting QBs. Its clear to see that they dont even trust Jake at his point.

    If we dont draft the QB of the future soon (two 2006 first rounders is the perfect opprotunity) this team will be a absolute mess once its time to move on from Plummer. And once again I'll say it.... it's coming sooner than you think.
    Nobody of "youth or depth at the position"? Who are Mauck, BVP and Friehauf?
    And since when is bringing in competition a sign that somebody's out? How many TE's were brought in last year? And how many stayed?

    Your idea that the QB position is lean is not wholly acknowledged in the football world. For one thing, Kannel is a VERY affable backup.
    And to bring in competition for the position would only INCREASE the likelihood that the position would be at its highest, no?
    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,
    tireless minority keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of
    men."

    -- Samuel Adams

    Jacks RULE!!!!!!

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco8534
    matt leinart would never become a bronco because the broncos would never trade down to get matt leinart and wut if leinart has a really bad year like the guy from oklahoma did maybe if he did that bad then he might not even be drafted
    A bad year like the guy from OU? You mean Jason White?
    The same guy that threw for over 3205 yards.....with 35 td's....at over a 65% clip?

    Or the guy that had one bad game, at the end of his college career, in front of millions.

    Funny how you judge a qb as 'bad' after throwing for over 70td's/less than 20 int's, in two years....
    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,
    tireless minority keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of
    men."

    -- Samuel Adams

    Jacks RULE!!!!!!

  7. #67
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    I'm looking for us to use the washington pick to select a top tier D-linemen. To give us a stud on our D-line since the last one we had was Pyrce... With our other pick we should select a safety or a O-linemen.

    PSN & XBL: Vicious2500
    You Shed Tears of Scarlet

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicious2500
    I'm looking for us to use the washington pick to select a top tier D-linemen. To give us a stud on our D-line since the last one we had was Pyrce... With our other pick we should select a safety or a O-linemen.


    Sure hope he listens to someone besides his inner voice on making the pick. Instead of reaching for a 2 rounder with the lowball pick this year.

    Maybe we should trade the pick for a top notch GM. That would probably be the best value for the pick.

    I really do not want Mikey DAFTING any more top 20 picks.

  9. #69
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    He hasn't messed up any top 20 picks in a LONG time.

    (by the way... "Dafting"... its old and done with I think. Time to find a new word)

  10. #70
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    What I find astounding is that there can be over 60 posts in this thread and NOT ONE person has even bothered to point out that drafting Matt Leinart is IMPOSSIBLE! Forget about whether it's a good idea or not, it's flat impossible!

    Everyone is making all the same pointless arguments back and forth: "He'd be great", "NO! We'd be giving up too much!", "Yes we need him, Plummer suX!" "No we don't! Plummer will have a breakout year!"

    On and on with this drivel!

    Assuming he is the #1 draft pick next year, the Broncos could NEVER draft Leinart.

    NONE of you have bothered to consider the Draft Value of the #1 pick! That is how NFL teams evaluate whether they're getting equivalent trade value for their picks.

    Take a look at the DRAFT VALUE CHART!!

    Notice that the #1 pick is worth 3000 points!

    Now if BOTH the Broncos & Redskins finish 6-10 (which will never happen, but let's imagine it did), both teams would pick between 8-12.

    Optomistically speaking, let's say the Broncos had the 9 and 10 pick. Those combined picks are (1350 + 1300 points = 2650pts).

    Even the 9th & 10th pick TOGETHER STILL DON'T EQUAL the #1 pick!

    The Broncos #2 pick would be worth about 480 points, so we're talking trading:

    the Broncos #1 and #2 picks, plus the #1 pick we got from the Redskins for the overall #1 pick. That's THREE picks. Do you think there's the most remote chance that Shanahan would trade the 3 picks for the overall #1 even if he had them?

    And that assumes that the Broncos even HAVE a top 10 pick, which would mean either the Broncos or the Redskins would probably have to win 5 games (certainly not more than 6 and get lucky with draft pick tie breakers like strength of schedule). That's simply to get 1 top 10 pick. For the Broncos to have 2 top 10 picks BOTH teams would have to go a combined 12-20 or worse (probably worse).

    Now do you see why all this drivel is pointless? It can't happen. Period. Unless you think BOTH the Broncos AND Redskins are going to go 5-12 or 6-10. If the Broncos win 8 games their pick would be worth about 900-950 pts. So basically you're hoping that the Redskins win not more than 4 games next year.

    That won't happen. You really think the Redskins are one of the 3 worst teams in the league next season? No way they're as bad as Cleveland, Miami, or S.F. last year.

    Now I know since I've posted about draft value before that most of you will simply ignore this reality so you can go blithely on arguing nonsense.

    But for anyone who lives in the real world, that should end this ridiculous debate.

  11. #71
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    Thumbs up Yes . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Cugel
    What I find astounding is that there can be over 60 posts in this thread and NOT ONE person has even bothered to point out that drafting Matt Leinart is IMPOSSIBLE! Forget about whether it's a good idea or not, it's flat impossible!

    Everyone is making all the same pointless arguments back and forth: "He'd be great", "NO! We'd be giving up too much!", "Yes we need him, Plummer suX!" "No we don't! Plummer will have a breakout year!"

    On and on with this drivel!

    Assuming he is the #1 draft pick next year, the Broncos could NEVER draft Leinart.

    NONE of you have bothered to consider the Draft Value of the #1 pick! That is how NFL teams evaluate whether they're getting equivalent trade value for their picks.

    Take a look at the DRAFT VALUE CHART!!

    Notice that the #1 pick is worth 3000 points!

    Now if BOTH the Broncos & Redskins finish 6-10 (which will never happen, but let's imagine it did), both teams would pick between 8-12.

    Optomistically speaking, let's say the Broncos had the 9 and 10 pick. Those combined picks are (1350 + 1300 points = 2650pts).

    Even the 9th & 10th pick TOGETHER STILL DON'T EQUAL the #1 pick!

    The Broncos #2 pick would be worth about 480 points, so we're talking trading:

    the Broncos #1 and #2 picks, plus the #1 pick we got from the Redskins for the overall #1 pick. That's THREE picks. Do you think there's the most remote chance that Shanahan would trade the 3 picks for the overall #1 even if he had them?

    And that assumes that the Broncos even HAVE a top 10 pick, which would mean either the Broncos or the Redskins would probably have to win 5 games (certainly not more than 6 and get lucky with draft pick tie breakers like strength of schedule). That's simply to get 1 top 10 pick. For the Broncos to have 2 top 10 picks BOTH teams would have to go a combined 12-20 or worse (probably worse).

    Now do you see why all this drivel is pointless? It can't happen. Period. Unless you think BOTH the Broncos AND Redskins are going to go 5-12 or 6-10. If the Broncos win 8 games their pick would be worth about 900-950 pts. So basically you're hoping that the Redskins win not more than 4 games next year.

    That won't happen. You really think the Redskins are one of the 3 worst teams in the league next season? No way they're as bad as Cleveland, Miami, or S.F. last year.

    Now I know since I've posted about draft value before that most of you will simply ignore this reality so you can go blithely on arguing nonsense.

    But for anyone who lives in the real world, that should end this ridiculous debate.
    Despite your rather rough personal references . . .

    This is probably the most perspicacious post I have seen in this thread,
    other than those pointing out that we already have some young talent.

    Thanks for this exposé.

    Guess I'll give you a point for this.



    -----
    Last edited by topscribe; 06-30-2005 at 12:28 PM.

  12. #72
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    Jun 2005
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    Your out of your mind. Matt Leinhart is a Rick Meier(sp) waiting to happen. Good in college and f's it up in the pros. Leinhart isn't very accurate and is as mobile as Al Davis. Leinhart is not our kind of our QB. Period.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!!
    He hasn't messed up any top 20 picks in a LONG time.

    (by the way... "Dafting"... its old and done with I think. Time to find a new word)
    That is only because he has only had 4
    Mobley 15, delta 15, asshley19, foster 20

    I still think the jury is out on asshley never have thought he has lived up to a #1 choice. delta was a bust in DEN

    Ones you'd like to forget
    nash 30
    middlebroke 24


    I will continue using DAFTING as it fits the best.


    I don't think ravaging the draft is quite right.
    Last edited by Jrhampton; 06-30-2005 at 03:12 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cugel
    What I find astounding is that there can be over 60 posts in this thread and NOT ONE person has even bothered to point out that drafting Matt Leinart is IMPOSSIBLE! Forget about whether it's a good idea or not, it's flat impossible!

    Everyone is making all the same pointless arguments back and forth: "He'd be great", "NO! We'd be giving up too much!", "Yes we need him, Plummer suX!" "No we don't! Plummer will have a breakout year!"

    On and on with this drivel!

    Assuming he is the #1 draft pick next year, the Broncos could NEVER draft Leinart.

    NONE of you have bothered to consider the Draft Value of the #1 pick! That is how NFL teams evaluate whether they're getting equivalent trade value for their picks.

    Take a look at the DRAFT VALUE CHART!!

    Notice that the #1 pick is worth 3000 points!

    Now if BOTH the Broncos & Redskins finish 6-10 (which will never happen, but let's imagine it did), both teams would pick between 8-12.

    Optomistically speaking, let's say the Broncos had the 9 and 10 pick. Those combined picks are (1350 + 1300 points = 2650pts).

    Even the 9th & 10th pick TOGETHER STILL DON'T EQUAL the #1 pick!

    The Broncos #2 pick would be worth about 480 points, so we're talking trading:

    the Broncos #1 and #2 picks, plus the #1 pick we got from the Redskins for the overall #1 pick. That's THREE picks. Do you think there's the most remote chance that Shanahan would trade the 3 picks for the overall #1 even if he had them?

    And that assumes that the Broncos even HAVE a top 10 pick, which would mean either the Broncos or the Redskins would probably have to win 5 games (certainly not more than 6 and get lucky with draft pick tie breakers like strength of schedule). That's simply to get 1 top 10 pick. For the Broncos to have 2 top 10 picks BOTH teams would have to go a combined 12-20 or worse (probably worse).

    Now do you see why all this drivel is pointless? It can't happen. Period. Unless you think BOTH the Broncos AND Redskins are going to go 5-12 or 6-10. If the Broncos win 8 games their pick would be worth about 900-950 pts. So basically you're hoping that the Redskins win not more than 4 games next year.

    That won't happen. You really think the Redskins are one of the 3 worst teams in the league next season? No way they're as bad as Cleveland, Miami, or S.F. last year.

    Now I know since I've posted about draft value before that most of you will simply ignore this reality so you can go blithely on arguing nonsense.

    But for anyone who lives in the real world, that should end this ridiculous debate.
    We all know Shannahan doesnt give a **** about the value chart. Not with the way he drafts.

    Its always possible for us to get the #1 pick. You never know. Someone could want to trade down badly and sell the pick for a discount, you never know what wheelings and dealings could go on. Ive said it before, if a team wants a player bad enough they will do whatever it takes to make it happen. Period.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momentum
    We all know Shannahan doesnt give a **** about the value chart. Not with the way he drafts.
    Wrong, Wrong, Wrong and Wrong!

    Shanahan often reaches for picks, but that has NOTHING to do with it in this case!

    The value chart establishes what the team with the #1 pick will take to trade the pick. Shanahan drafting my dead grandmother to play defensive tackle doesn't enter into it.

    Now do you begin to understand? No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Momentum
    Its always possible for us to get the #1 pick. You never know. Someone could want to trade down badly and sell the pick for a discount, you never know what wheelings and dealings could go on. Ive said it before, if a team wants a player bad enough they will do whatever it takes to make it happen. Period.
    This is just total nonsense! It's NOT always possible to get the #1 pick! It takes a boatload of picks and maybe some veteran players to get the #1 pick! Lots of times (like this year with S.F., the team won't seriously even consider trading the pick).

    When San Diego traded with the Giants in 2004 they got the Giants' #4 pick overall, plus the Giants #1 in 2004 (#12 overall) plus a couple of other picks for the rights to Eli Manning. Teams offered about the same to S.F. this year and no-dice.

    Normally, it's not even possible at all. Most teams just don't have the draft value to get the #1 overall pick! For instance, the Broncos entire 2004 draft wasn't NEARLY enough (not even with their 2005 #1 pick thrown in) to get the #1 pick this year!

    You clearly don't have a CLUE what extraordinary value the overall #1 pick has every year! Every year there is at least 1 sure-fire, can't miss player! (It's not always the same player for every team and sometimes that player doesn't pan out). But at the time of the draft, every team has at least 1 player that they would LOVE to have, if only they could get him. Normally, they can't.

    NOBODY desparately wants to trade down "for a discount" out of the top 5. Name a time when the overall #1 pick has been traded down "for a discount" to a team with about the #8-12 pick (at best). I just doesn't happen.

    And if you knew anything about the draft you'd KNOW it just doesn't happen.

    "Ive said it before, if a team wants a player bad enough they will do whatever it takes to make it happen. Period"

    That is the MOST ridiculous part of your entire remark. Only very STUPID teams will consider giving up their entire draft for 1 player. Do the Giants look like geniuses right now? They could have either used their #4 pick to take Phillip Rivers or traded down, picked up an extra pick and taken Ben Roethlisberger.

    Either of those courses would have been much better of course.

    Shanahan will NEVER trade 3 or 4 picks to take Leinart, even if he has them, which is almost certain not to happen.

    Just get the idea out of your head. It has ZERO chance of happening.

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