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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jrhampton
    If he knew or strongly thought that the play would be interceped and run back yes it would be a boneheaded play.
    Well JR, then by this definition, every time Plummer throws an INT he KNOWS its going to be intercepted, thus each one is a boneheaded throw? Not in my opinion. There are lots of times a QB, all QBs, make good throws that get intercepted. The throw from Plummer out of the endzone was STRICTLY an attempt on his part to throw the ball away. Sure he was trying to save the safety, and CERTAINLY he didn't know the ball was going to be intercepted. If he KNEW when the ball was going to be intercepted, then I'm guessing he wouldn't average over 20 a year. The fact that he TRIED to throw a left handed pass from the endzone is boneheaded. Seriously. EVEN if it had been caught... it would have been a BONEHEADED play that HAPPENED to work out. It was a BONEHEADED attempt.. period. That doesn't mean I think Plummer (I'm no longer going to use the word that is constantly highlighted in orange without me wanting it to be highlighed in orange)should be judged on that one play. That was one of his BIGGEST boneheaded decisions. So what. All QBs make them, but to try and make excuses.. even as far as saying it was because his "arm was hit".. is just taking the excuse thing too far. A QB doesn't throw 20+ INTS 63% of his career because he DOESN'T make poor decisions. He does. The one from the endzone just happened to be his worst. I personally don't think we should judge anyone from their WORST decision or their WORST play. Thats silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by JrHampton
    But, Jake saw a receiver and attempted the play, because he thought he could make it. Without the risk of a pick and that it would save the team 2 points.
    Yeah. I don't know if Plummer really saw a receiver. I think he was just throwing it to get rid of it.. to try and save the obvious safety. In reality... if the ball would have fallen incomplete, it most likely could have been ruled intentional grounding..thus giving up the safety anway. If it had been with his normal throwing arm, then it would have been just a BAD play... but considering it was him switching hands, we have to admite (as I truly think even HE would admit), it was a BONEHEADED play. I don't care if his arm was 'bumped' or whatever. He switched the ball into his left hand because he was being hit from the right side, correct? So of COURSE he was being 'hit' as he threw it.
    Quote Originally Posted by JrHampton
    Little did he know that the arm would be hit as he was attempting the throw. If he did know that would happen then I'd be the first one to berate him. Do you honestly think he took that risk KNOWING that he could not make the play? OR that his arm would be hit?
    Jr. Of course he knew his arm was going to be bumped ( he as basically in the grasp already). Isn't this football? A contact sport? Wasn't he just about to be sacked for the safety? Wouldn't it just fall into reason to know that you are NOT going to throw an accurate pass, with the opposite hand, when you're about to be sacked?? I mean.. the whole "bumped left arm" thing.... is REALLY stretching the limits of justification on this.
    Quote Originally Posted by JrHampton
    I suspect if Jake had the same talent surrounding him that John in his superbowls years of 97-99 Much the same thing would have happened. IMHO
    well.. I don't know if thats the case of not. I don't think Plummer can perform at an Elway level.. and I think that John played very well in that Super Bowl vs GB. I'm not going to argue this, because this is strictly just an opinion, and can't be debated. I respect that you feel this way. I personally don't think that Plummer could have beaten GB.

    The simple point that I was making in reference to this "boneheaded" thing... was simply to say that its ONE thing to defend your favorite players. It's another to completely ignore their mistakes and try to justify them. The "left handed pass from your own endzone would have been a good play had he not had his arm bumped" one is the epitomy of stretching for an excuse. To tell me that Plummer wouldn't have thrown the pass had he KNOWN it was going to be intercepted, well... is obvious. Fans rely on their QB to be able to know the risks of taking such a ... "boneheaded".... attempt from your own endzone. There are just too many BAD things that can happen. Thats not the time to be gutsy, daring, and to "go for it." Thats the time to be careful, smart, no mistakes. ANY time...ANYTIME... you are backed up into your own endzone you throw safe passes or you throw it away out of bounds. Why? Because a turn-over is automatic points for the other team, even if they don't move a yard. So although having a gutsy QB is FUN to have... you want that gutsy QB to have the veteran intelligence to say to himself "ya know, this just isn't the time."

    Personally. I think its cool that you guys back Plummer so hard. But at the same time, it takes away from a lot of your GOOD points when you try to defend and justify the REALLY REALLY obvious bad ones (or play in this case).
    Last edited by Ravage!!!; 08-14-2005 at 09:00 PM.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!!
    Yeah. I don't know if Plummer really saw a receiver. I think he was just throwing it to get rid of it.. to try and save the obvious safety. In reality... if the ball would have fallen incomplete, it most likely could have been ruled intentional grounding..thus giving up the safety anway. If it had been with his normal throwing arm, then it would have been just a BAD play... but considering it was him switching hands, we have to admite (as I truly think even HE would admit), it was a BONEHEADED play. I don't care if his arm was 'bumped' or whatever. He switched the ball into his left hand because he was being hit from the right side, correct? So of COURSE he was being 'hit' as he threw it.

    well.. I don't know if thats the case of not. I don't think Plummer can perform at an Elway level.. and I think that John played very well in that Super Bowl vs GB. I'm not going to argue this, because this is strictly just an opinion, and can't be debated. I respect that you feel this way. I personally don't think that Plummer could have beaten GB.

    The simple point that I was making in reference to this "boneheaded" thing... was simply to say that its ONE thing to defend your favorite players. It's another to completely ignore their mistakes and try to justify them. The "left handed pass from your own endzone would have been a good play had he not had his arm bumped" one is the epitomy of stretching for an excuse. To tell me that Plummer wouldn't have thrown the pass had he KNOWN it was going to be intercepted, well... is obvious. Fans rely on their QB to be able to know the risks of taking such a ... "boneheaded".... attempt from your own endzone. There are just too many BAD things that can happen. Thats not the time to be gutsy, daring, and to "go for it." Thats the time to be careful, smart, no mistakes. ANY time...ANYTIME... you are backed up into your own endzone you throw safe passes or you throw it away out of bounds. Why? Because a turn-over is automatic points for the other team, even if they don't move a yard. So although having a gutsy QB is FUN to have... you want that gutsy QB to have the veteran intelligence to say to himself "ya know, this just isn't the time."

    Personally. I think its cool that you guys back Plummer so hard. But at the same time, it takes away from a lot of your GOOD points when you try to defend and justify the REALLY REALLY obvious bad ones (or play in this case).

    As does yours. Your opinion is just as valid as my or Tops or many of the other Bronco fans.

    You say excuse, I say reason. Who is right is? Is dependent upon who is reading and what preconceived idea they have.

    As demonstrated in past polls on the subject +80%, almost 90% fall unto my side of the debate.

    Since Mikey still likes the guy it must frustrate alot of folks 10-15% that Jake is still our QB.

    In this particular case I'm not necessarily lumping Ravage into this catagory while you are not in love with him you wish him no evil like very small group does.

  3. #138
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    wow.. I did a really bad job of boxing in My quotes and posts on that last one before you quoted me. Please re-read my post sometime (not that its going to change your opinion,) its just a better post than the one I originally posted.

  4. #139
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    come to think of it, how do I give myself cp??

  5. #140
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    If forums were around when Elway was playing bad and throwing picks I think it would happen the same way as you are all doing now. Let's not forget he has been to the playoffs a few times since he has been here. Digressing(In my SS mode in Madden JP has like 40 TD and 10 ints which is weird because Madden always makes them lose to anyone but the cardinals.)

  6. #141
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    As a matter of fact, Manning tried one that I thought went for a completion and big yardage because his arm was not hit, as was Jake's. Another poster, however, stated that Manning's L.H. throw was also intercepted, so now I am left in doubt. However, I do know that Manning at least attempted such a pass, so according to the MileHighMagic07 guy, Mannning must not be a good QB, either.

    No, Manning is a good QB, i didn't say that, please don't put words in my mouth tops. But there are certain situations to try a left handed throw if its the easiest play available to make, not from your own goalline while being sacked blindly throwing it right into the breadbasket of another team's player... thats just dumb. and it seems jake always does dumber things near each endzone, against oakland the interception when he scrambled away from pressure and could have ran for a first down instead throwing in the endzone and being intercepted, once again... against carolina throwing to julius peppers (not our team) and him running it all the way back to the our 1 yard line or so. just a bonehead, doesnt make good decisions when its important. say what you want about jake's stats, and he broke elway's record or whatever, when it all comes down to it, i wouldn't want plumber starting in the playoffs on my team, one bonehead mistake in the playoffs and you are out. you guys better hope tatum bell, or lelie, or someone has a sensational year to take us to the big game because jake sure as hell ain't gonna be responsible for anything spectacular. and don't count on him for anything special this season, he'll have his fare share of bonehead interceptions i guarantee it, its been going for 9 or 10 years straight, who's gonna stop him now...

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by MileHighMagic07
    As a matter of fact, Manning tried one that I thought went for a completion and big yardage because his arm was not hit, as was Jake's. Another poster, however, stated that Manning's L.H. throw was also intercepted, so now I am left in doubt. However, I do know that Manning at least attempted such a pass, so according to the MileHighMagic07 guy, Mannning must not be a good QB, either.

    No, Manning is a good QB, i didn't say that, please don't put words in my mouth tops. But there are certain situations to try a left handed throw if its the easiest play available to make, not from your own goalline while being sacked blindly throwing it right into the breadbasket of another team's player... thats just dumb. and it seems jake always does dumber things near each endzone, against oakland the interception when he scrambled away from pressure and could have ran for a first down instead throwing in the endzone and being intercepted, once again... against carolina throwing to julius peppers (not our team) and him running it all the way back to the our 1 yard line or so. just a bonehead, doesnt make good decisions when its important. say what you want about jake's stats, and he broke elway's record or whatever, when it all comes down to it, i wouldn't want plumber starting in the playoffs on my team, one bonehead mistake in the playoffs and you are out. you guys better hope tatum bell, or lelie, or someone has a sensational year to take us to the big game because jake sure as hell ain't gonna be responsible for anything spectacular. and don't count on him for anything special this season, he'll have his fare share of bonehead interceptions i guarantee it, its been going for 9 or 10 years straight, who's gonna stop him now...

    What happened in 2003? better than a 2-1 TD/I ratio. Kinda blows that theory don't you think?

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by MileHighMagic07
    As a matter of fact, Manning tried one that I thought went for a completion and big yardage because his arm was not hit, as was Jake's. Another poster, however, stated that Manning's L.H. throw was also intercepted, so now I am left in doubt. However, I do know that Manning at least attempted such a pass, so according to the MileHighMagic07 guy, Mannning must not be a good QB, either.

    No, Manning is a good QB, i didn't say that, please don't put words in my mouth tops. But there are certain situations to try a left handed throw if its the easiest play available to make, not from your own goalline while being sacked blindly throwing it right into the breadbasket of another team's player... thats just dumb. and it seems jake always does dumber things near each endzone, against oakland the interception when he scrambled away from pressure and could have ran for a first down instead throwing in the endzone and being intercepted, once again... against carolina throwing to julius peppers (not our team) and him running it all the way back to the our 1 yard line or so. just a bonehead, doesnt make good decisions when its important. say what you want about jake's stats, and he broke elway's record or whatever, when it all comes down to it, i wouldn't want plumber starting in the playoffs on my team, one bonehead mistake in the playoffs and you are out. you guys better hope tatum bell, or lelie, or someone has a sensational year to take us to the big game because jake sure as hell ain't gonna be responsible for anything spectacular. and don't count on him for anything special this season, he'll have his fare share of bonehead interceptions i guarantee it, its been going for 9 or 10 years straight, who's gonna stop him now...
    Why all this use of bandwidth over ONE attempted pass? Jake attempted 521 passes last year, and you are fixated on that ONE pass? I have just one response to that, a final response:


    CHILL




    -----

  9. #144
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    What happened in 2003? better than a 2-1 TD/I ratio. Kinda blows that theory don't you think?

    You're right, my bad... okay i'll give him that one year... now what about the other 8/9 years???

  10. #145
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    Talking

    Why all this use of bandwidth over ONE attempted pass? Jake attempted 521 passes last year, and you are fixated on that ONE pass? I have just one response to that, a final response:


    CHILL



    521 passes attempted, great... but that ONE pass could be the ONE that knocks us out of the playoffs or ends our season... he's gotta stop those ONE passes... too many times he tries those ONE passes as you call them... now we can chill

  11. #146
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    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by MileHighMagic07
    What happened in 2003? better than a 2-1 TD/I ratio. Kinda blows that theory don't you think?

    You're right, my bad... okay i'll give him that one year... now what about the other 8/9 years???
    What about them? Why don't you forget them? Jake did not play for the Broncos then. You obviously have no idea what really happened on that other team, else you would not be making such comments. For the Broncos the last two years, Jake has a 19-8 regular season record. That's all you need to be concerned about.

    Unless you are a Cardinals fan?

    -----

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by MileHighMagic07
    521 passes attempted, great... but that ONE pass could be the ONE that knocks us out of the playoffs or ends our season... he's gotta stop those ONE passes... too many times he tries those ONE passes as you call them... now we can chill
    How can you say ONE PASS took us out of the playoffs?

    If that's the case, then we need to bash Rod Smith for the ONE PASS he dropped in the end zone or the ONE PASS Watts dropped in the end zone. Either one of those would have won the game. Or maybe we can pick out ONE PASS Champ was beat on against Oakland in a game that was decided by ONE POINT.

    Now, are you ready to conduct an intelligent discussion?

    -----

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe
    How can you say ONE PASS took us out of the playoffs?

    If that's the case, then we need to bash Rod Smith for the ONE PASS he dropped in the end zone or the ONE PASS Watts dropped in the end zone. Either one of those would have won the game. Or maybe we can pick out ONE PASS Champ was beat on against Oakland in a game that was decided by ONE POINT.

    Now, are you ready to conduct an intelligent discussion?

    -----
    I don't think he was literally talking about the ONE pass. I think he was using it more of an example of the "one pass" being the pass that was "A" bad decision.. not THE bad pass that was THE bad decision.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe
    How can you say ONE PASS took us out of the playoffs?

    If that's the case, then we need to bash Rod Smith for the ONE PASS he dropped in the end zone or the ONE PASS Watts dropped in the end zone. Either one of those would have won the game. Or maybe we can pick out ONE PASS Champ was beat on against Oakland in a game that was decided by ONE POINT.

    Now, are you ready to conduct an intelligent discussion?

    -----

    Thank you TOP for answering that one. and the the others.

    Somehow I missed these posts.


    Some folks will find something wrong NO MATTER how much good as been done.

    You KNOW the GLASS is almost empty kinda folks.

    Never will they be happy with anyone else except the exalted one. King of QB's. Ruler of the Bronco nation.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!!
    I don't think he was literally talking about the ONE pass. I think he was using it more of an example of the "one pass" being the pass that was "A" bad decision.. not THE bad pass that was THE bad decision.
    I see your point but what about the other 500 some odd passes. and of all the completions, TD's , First downs, Scrambles for yardage, naked Bootlegs.

    What about the others do they not counts also. A 500 some odd to one ratio is awfully intense. A bit more intolerant than in most jobs.

    No one lost their lives, do you suppose the risk factor in Heart surgery is higher than 500 to one?

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