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  1. #16
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    We are not giving a 2nd for Javon as of now we are offering a 6th and Lelie, that's it. With some clever bargining, we could get him for Lelie and a 4th or 5th.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by no-pseudo-fan
    We are not giving a 2nd for Javon as of now we are offering a 6th and Lelie, that's it. With some clever bargining, we could get him for Lelie and a 4th or 5th.
    That is all rumor. Anything that has really happened with Denver thus far this offseason has not been reported or rumored until it was over and done with.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen
    He never threatend to retire because of money. He was a mid round pick that is under paid for what he brings to his team. He asked for more money. This probably could have been handled better(Drew Rosenhouse was his agent, he fired the bum). He is upset because Brett Farve called him out and said that he should get into camp for the team. If nobody noticed he did that without a new deal. Everybody in Green Bay turned their back on him and said he was selfish because the great Brett Favre said he should put the team before himself. Now the great Brett Favre leaves the team wondering what he's gonna do until a week before the draft and nobody has a problem with it. I heard Javon Walker checked into a Green Bay hotel and the guy at the front desk sarcastically announced he was there and the people standing around booed. This guy didn't get a new deal blew out his knee and jeopardized his future profits because Brett Favre said so and that is the treatment he gets. That is why he wants out of Green Bay. Not to mention the fact that they aren't any good and neither is Aaron Rodgers.

    p.s. Can anyone find me what Javon Walker's current contract actually is.



    Walker is scheduled to make anywhere from $650,000 to $2 million in 2006 depending on his production this season.


    -Milwaukee Journal Sentinel Onilne

    http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=344214

  4. #19
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    thanks for the info

    So, in the year when he blew out his knee he didn't make anymore than $650,000. All he is asking for is security. What if he could never come back from that injury. Brett Favre would have cost him millions. Nobody ever said he wanted 7 mill a year.

  5. #20
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    There is another factor that everybody is leaving out. Javon was being thrown to by a sure-fire, first year of eligibility Hall of Fame quarterback, and Lelie was being thrown to by, well, Jake Plummer.

    One of the most interesting stats I have seen on Lelie from reasearching for previous threads is that he had less than 5 drops last year. I say "less than" because the stat site where I got the info only counts receivers who dropped more than 5 passes for that statistic. A "drop" contitutes a pass that hits a player in the hands and is not caught.

    He had 42 receptions, so that means a total of 46 catchable balls were delivered to him, and he caught just over 91% of them (assuming the maximum possible drops of 4...it could have actually been less, so this is the worst-case scenario).

    Here is the passes dropped list.

    Unfortunately due to Walker's injury we can't compare stats...and I don't believe that this particular site has 2004's stats.

    So the question becomes, is it Lelie's fault that passes are not hitting him in the hands, or Plummer's? Is it poor route-running that leaves him out of position to even make tha catch, or is he simply being missed?

    There're a bunch more stats to look at, which I don't have the time to do, but I hope this adds a little to the conversation.
    I bleed orange and blue!!!


    Rest in peace, Darrent.

    I adopted Domenik Hixon!!


  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry1977
    There is another factor that everybody is leaving out. Javon was being thrown to by a sure-fire, first year of eligibility Hall of Fame quarterback, and Lelie was being thrown to by, well, Jake Plummer.

    One of the most interesting stats I have seen on Lelie from reasearching for previous threads is that he had less than 5 drops last year. I say "less than" because the stat site where I got the info only counts receivers who dropped more than 5 passes for that statistic. A "drop" contitutes a pass that hits a player in the hands and is not caught.

    He had 42 receptions, so that means a total of 46 catchable balls were delivered to him, and he caught just over 91% of them (assuming the maximum possible drops of 4...it could have actually been less, so this is the worst-case scenario).

    Here is the passes dropped list.

    Unfortunately due to Walker's injury we can't compare stats...and I don't believe that this particular site has 2004's stats.

    So the question becomes, is it Lelie's fault that passes are not hitting him in the hands, or Plummer's? Is it poor route-running that leaves him out of position to even make tha catch, or is he simply being missed?

    There're a bunch more stats to look at, which I don't have the time to do, but I hope this adds a little to the conversation.
    It isn't a matter of him catching the ball as much as he doesn't run good routes and get open. This is why so few balls went his way.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhns
    It isn't a matter of him catching the ball as much as he doesn't run good routes and get open. This is why so few balls went his way.

    Or it could be that Plummer threw for 800 less yards, 9 TDs, and 40 less completions then the year prior?

    Lelie certainly ran good routes in 2004, and he ran good routes in 2005. We simply ran the ball a ton more. Remember our attempt at having 2, 1000 yard rushers?

    Lelie only caught 12 less passes and 300 less yards then he did in his "break out" 2004 campaign. And we all remember several passes that Jake missed with Lelie wide open streaking down the field last season.

    Also, Jeb Putzier became a middle of the field factor last season. Remember him getting laid out almost every game? Lelie was seldom asked to run short routes, and as mentioned, when thrown to, he had a 91% catch ratio.


    And finally, Lelie was the 2nd option in Denver. Javon Walker was the first option in Green Bay. Denver is a run first offense, usually leading the league in rushing attempts. Green Bay is the polar opposite.

    Put Lelie on Green Bay, he'll produce similar to Walker. Put Walker on Denver, he'll produce similar to Lelie because Rod Smith will still be the #1 target. Aslo, there is the slight difference between Jake Plummer and Brett Favre, as there is with the offensive philosophies to keep in mind in this hypothetical, stastical comparision people are doing.

  8. #23
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    I think the Packers would be (or at least they should be) in favor of swinging a deal that nets them leile that way they wouldn't have to find an immediate replacement and Leile would benefit Green Bay's offense and is better suited for the big arm of Farve, while Javon is just what we are looking for.

    ALSO remember they were picked one after another Leile #19 and Javon #20 in the 2003 draft

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry1977
    There is another factor that everybody is leaving out. Javon was being thrown to by a sure-fire, first year of eligibility Hall of Fame quarterback, and Lelie was being thrown to by, well, Jake Plummer.

    One of the most interesting stats I have seen on Lelie from reasearching for previous threads is that he had less than 5 drops last year. I say "less than" because the stat site where I got the info only counts receivers who dropped more than 5 passes for that statistic. A "drop" contitutes a pass that hits a player in the hands and is not caught.

    He had 42 receptions, so that means a total of 46 catchable balls were delivered to him, and he caught just over 91% of them (assuming the maximum possible drops of 4...it could have actually been less, so this is the worst-case scenario).

    Here is the passes dropped list.

    Unfortunately due to Walker's injury we can't compare stats...and I don't believe that this particular site has 2004's stats.

    So the question becomes, is it Lelie's fault that passes are not hitting him in the hands, or Plummer's? Is it poor route-running that leaves him out of position to even make tha catch, or is he simply being missed?

    There're a bunch more stats to look at, which I don't have the time to do, but I hope this adds a little to the conversation.
    We haven't missed this, check the beginning of the thread. There is a one year spike in Favre's rating in 2004 when Walker had his breakout year. In this case it seems that Walker helped the ageing Brett Favre, a ton. It doesn't seem to be that Favre is making Walker, but quite the opposite. At least for that one year

  10. #25
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    I love how you gave me a thread in my honor .


    But to say Yards per game is an accurate way of doing this is wrong. Most of teams are either good teams or bad teams. The good teams have big leads and the opposing teams are forced to pass to get back in the game.

    Of those teams you have in orange, the Pack won only 3 of those games out of 7 games.

    I examined the teams the best way I could and how I did it was mainly by counting the number of categories that the teams were in the bottom/top half and seeing if that number was bigger than the other number. That is how I did it. I gave some category numbers out that I felt were important. It in no means was a way to so called 'SWING' the arguement to my favor.

    You have to look at everything, what kind of teams are in their conference, what is their record and so on. You can't look at one stat like you have done. That is wrong.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
    Or it could be that Plummer threw for 800 less yards, 9 TDs, and 40 less completions then the year prior?

    Lelie certainly ran good routes in 2004, and he ran good routes in 2005. We simply ran the ball a ton more. Remember our attempt at having 2, 1000 yard rushers?

    Lelie only caught 12 less passes and 300 less yards then he did in his "break out" 2004 campaign. And we all remember several passes that Jake missed with Lelie wide open streaking down the field last season.

    Also, Jeb Putzier became a middle of the field factor last season. Remember him getting laid out almost every game? Lelie was seldom asked to run short routes, and as mentioned, when thrown to, he had a 91% catch ratio.


    And finally, Lelie was the 2nd option in Denver. Javon Walker was the first option in Green Bay. Denver is a run first offense, usually leading the league in rushing attempts. Green Bay is the polar opposite.

    Put Lelie on Green Bay, he'll produce similar to Walker. Put Walker on Denver, he'll produce similar to Lelie because Rod Smith will still be the #1 target. Aslo, there is the slight difference between Jake Plummer and Brett Favre, as there is with the offensive philosophies to keep in mind in this hypothetical, stastical comparision people are doing.
    How many times did you see Lelie open on a short slant or cut route. He doesn't run short to intermediate routes well at all. If he is going for a deep route he is as good as any though. This is where they have the differences. Javon is an all around good reciever while Lelie is still limited and doesn't run good routes. If he where open he would be passed to. Brett also has not been the Hall of Fame QB that he once was for the past few years. He did not make Walker look any better than Plummer can make him look. I guess though if they trade Lelie to GB and Walker to here we can see who is right on this one.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by West
    I love how you gave me a thread in my honor .


    But to say Yards per game is an accurate way of doing this is wrong. Most of teams are either good teams or bad teams. The good teams have big leads and the opposing teams are forced to pass to get back in the game.

    Of those teams you have in orange, the Pack won only 3 of those games out of 7 games.

    I examined the teams the best way I could and how I did it was mainly by counting the number of categories that the teams were in the bottom/top half and seeing if that number was bigger than the other number. That is how I did it. I gave some category numbers out that I felt were important. It in no means was a way to so called 'SWING' the arguement to my favor.

    You have to look at everything, what kind of teams are in their conference, what is their record and so on. You can't look at one stat like you have done. That is wrong.
    If you had the important ones then why didn't you use the same 3 for all the teams. I think this is what he was talking about. This also means you did "SWING" the arguement to your favor. Why don't you post the records of all the teams also for that season then, if that is the important part(which I think is). Since there hasn't been a comback QB like Elway since he has retired the records will indicate if teams where playing from behind or ahead for the most part.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhns
    If you had the important ones then why didn't you use the same 3 for all the teams. I think this is what he was talking about. This also means you did "SWING" the arguement to your favor. Why don't you post the records of all the teams also for that season then, if that is the important part(which I think is). Since there hasn't been a comback QB like Elway since he has retired the records will indicate if teams where playing from behind or ahead for the most part.
    Just got off work, i'll post the records later. Remind me or i'll forget.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhns
    If you had the important ones then why didn't you use the same 3 for all the teams. I think this is what he was talking about. This also means you did "SWING" the arguement to your favor. Why don't you post the records of all the teams also for that season then, if that is the important part(which I think is). Since there hasn't been a comback QB like Elway since he has retired the records will indicate if teams where playing from behind or ahead for the most part.
    Yes that was my exact point. That you should use the exact same 3 crieteria, and cumulatively use them to rank the defenses. Perhaps I was lazy in only choosnig one category, 3 would defintiely provide a greater depth to the arguement. It must be the same 3 though, for each team. That is my main point. That the different ranks were used depending on the team, to help the arguement. If we agreed on 3 categoried, be it yards per attempt, scoring, and INTs, or yards per game, etc, that woudl be huge. Maybe when I have more tmie, I will add in two other categories, and evaluate the D's that way. The key is there needs to be UNIFORM comparison.

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