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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!!
    I understand what you are saying, and I'm not disagreeing with you completely. I don't think we can say 'teams didn't figure us out' in the playoffs when Pittsburgh showed that they were not worried about the pass.

    I don't think our offense last year had the QB do anything more than what Pittsburgh did with Roth that first season... manage the game with simple reads. I don't think we have an offensive presence that scares defenses. I think a rookie QB can make simple reads and manage the game (just as roth did). We have the strong running game, and we have the defense to support.

    I'm NOT putting Jay in the same caliber as a HoF QB Dan Marino. But Jay is more regarded coming out of college than Mariono was (laughs, big deal right? a lot were) and Dan went to a winning team and then led the Dolphins onto the Super Bowl. Ben continued to beat the best teams in the NFL his rookie year, and had a 15-1 record.

    Roth then won the Super Bowl the next year. If I could tell you that if we started Jay this year, we wouldn't win a playoff game, but would win the SUper Bowl NEXT year.... would you do it? Obviously we can't make that prediction....but I just don't believe our team would be DOOMED to a losing year like this thread tries to suggest.
    The NFL live coverage said none of the 4 QB's taken this year are regarded as anything special though. That would include Cutler. They said talking with scouts and coaches, noone really thinks these 4 are going to be an Elway or Marino type HOF QB. Then again any of them can develop into it and I see Young and Cutler as the best chance to turn into a HOF QB. They pointed out Matt doesn't have arm strength and that can't be taught. The other 2 have good arm strength and everything else can be taught. It is all up to the coaches and those QB's to make themselves good now though.

    With the managing the game part you stated. I would say that Jake may have only managed games but he took over most of those games at the beginning and then managed them after we were up by a lot and won them. I think Jake was one of the best game managers there was last season. I don't think Cutler would have as many wins and probably not much of a playoff run. Every single win counts also and with a couple less we could miss out on home field or first round bye. If you read my other posts though I also do agree that we would not have a losing record just from starting Jay. I just don't feel we would do nearly as good overall.

    I also feel that the managing the game was mostly due to a lack of talent around Jake. We had and still have a lot of average skilled players at our skill positions. The adition of Walker should help a lot and if we keep Lelie that would really help. If by chance on of the TE's can break out and be good this year and our running game stays on pace with what it has been I think this will be the year to judge Jake. It isn't like he has been playing with TD, Sharpe, Smith, and Eddie at the skill positions. I would think it is a lot harder to take over a game for him that it was for Elway.

    Also, they did bring up a good point. If you start a QB to early, you can ruin their confidense and make it so they are never good or make it so it takes a lot longer to overcome and develope some game winning confidense again.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medford Bronco
    Trust me from someone who watched him, Dan was awesome from the get go in his career.
    I know I watched him as well. The NFL Live crew was saying all seven of the rookie qbs that had alot of success had great running attacks and I don't remember that being true for Marino. He never had a great running game to compliment his passing.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBudris
    If Plummer gets hurt look for BVP to go in the beggining of the season and not Cutler if we are up.
    I'm not sure. Because of other 1st round picks, coming in and taking the spot on a winning teams, I would expect Cutler to start if Jake goes down.

  4. #49
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    I don't think that it is out in left field to say Denver would be 6-10, 7-9, or 8-8 with Cutler as the QB this year. They have a tough schedule.

    Keep in mind that I am not Plummer's biggest fan either.

    But I believe that Plummer is good for more wins because he has the experience that Cutler lacks. That experience and decision making is good for a few wins. Not to mention that as bad as some make him out to be, Plummer still demands more respect from a defence than Cutler would...meaning it allows the offense a little more room to make plays. Whether you like him or not, Plummer is an experienced QB who knows the Denver system and knows how to win in it. He may not carry the team on his shoulders...but his knowledge of the system and experience in the league and how to read defenses certainly are worth a few games.

    I just don't think that the Denver running game and defense are not enough to overcome a raw quarterback in a complex offense...certainly not good enough to keep Denver competative in a tough division and conference.
    Patriotic dissent is a luxury of those protected by better men than they.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhns
    The NFL live coverage said none of the 4 QB's taken this year are regarded as anything special though. That would include Cutler. They said talking with scouts and coaches, noone really thinks these 4 are going to be an Elway or Marino type HOF QB.
    well.. with all do respect.. I don't think this means squat. I have NO IDEA if these guys will turn out to be good.. but there is absolutely NO WAY anyone can make that prediction already. No way. If people could 'tell' Dan Marino was going to be a HoFer... he wouldn't have been the last of 6 taken in the first round. If people could tell that Joe Montana was going to be a HoFer...he would have been picked earlier than the third round. If everyone knew how good Brady was going to be, I don't think he would have lasted to the 6th round. If people knew that Roth was going to be as solid as early as he's been.. I don't think he would have dropped to the Steelers. If anyone is making this kind of statement, then I think they are just making stupid predictions of which they have no idea. PLUS, its VERY VERY easy to predict that a person WON'T be great, considering the odds are against anyone from being great is very high.
    Last edited by Ravage!!!; 07-13-2006 at 09:24 AM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhns
    The NFL live coverage said none of the 4 QB's taken this year are regarded as anything special though. That would include Cutler. They said talking with scouts and coaches, noone really thinks these 4 are going to be an Elway or Marino type HOF QB. Then again any of them can develop into it and I see Young and Cutler as the best chance to turn into a HOF QB. They pointed out Matt doesn't have arm strength and that can't be taught. The other 2 have good arm strength and everything else can be taught. It is all up to the coaches and those QB's to make themselves good now though.


    They did not say that none of the 4 QB's taken this year are regarded of anything special. Only neggative thing they said about Cutler is if he can win (making a coment because they posted the bad record at the bottom of screen. They did mention how you can not teach arm stregth and lelinart only 20 percent over like 15 yards or somthing.

    I actually see Clemons and Cutler being most succesfull in NFL. Always have (even the the ducks odds about making it in NFL are stacked against them )

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!!
    well.. with all do respect.. I don't think this means squat. I have NO IDEA if these guys will turn out to be good.. but there is absolutely NO WAY anyone can make that prediction already. No way. If people could 'tell' Dan Marino was going to be a HoFer... he wouldn't have been the last of 6 taken in the first round. If people could tell that Joe Montana was going to be a HoFer...he would have been picked earlier than the third round. If everyone knew how good Brady was going to be, I don't think he would have lasted to the 6th round. If people knew that Roth was going to be as solid as early as he's been.. I don't think he would have dropped to the Steelers. If anyone is making this kind of statement, then I think they are just making stupid predictions of which they have no idea. PLUS, its VERY VERY easy to predict that a person WON'T be great, considering the odds are against anyone from being great.
    It wasn't a prediction of how good they will be. It is simply a fact that none have the pure talent and abilities that other HOF QB's showed when they first entered the league. They mostly used Elway as an example but in that case he came in and they said within the first 20 passes in camp they knew he was special. It was simply a statement that none of the top 4 QB's this year have shown that yet. As I said it is up to them on what they do in the future. The only one they said will have trouble with everything is Matt because he knows most everything you can be taught but he is bad at the one thing you can't be taught, arm strength.

  8. #53
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    This topic makes me laugh...


    ...because I have a Rick Mirer jersey.


    "When Kepler found his long-cherished belief did not agree with the most precise observation, he accepted the uncomfortable fact. He preferred the hard truth to his dearest illusions; that is the heart of science."
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBudris
    They did not say that none of the 4 QB's taken this year are regarded of anything special. Only neggative thing they said about Cutler is if he can win (making a coment because they posted the bad record at the bottom of screen. They did mention how you can not teach arm stregth and lelinart only 20 percent over like 15 yards or somthing.

    I actually see Clemons and Cutler being most succesfull in NFL. Always have (even the the ducks odds about making it in NFL are stacked against them )
    I recommend that you watch again because they did say that. They also said they see Young as the strongest possibility of being something special because of his athleticism.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhns
    Those posts where all taken from what NFL live said, I never watched Marino's rookie season so I can't say it was one way or the other. I do know people like Ben and Orton had that combo though.
    I'm not criticizing you I understood that you were bring in what you heard on NFL Live. But they are mistake about Marino.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhns
    It wasn't a prediction of how good they will be. It is simply a fact that none have the pure talent and abilities that other HOF QB's showed when they first entered the league. They mostly used Elway as an example but in that case he came in and they said within the first 20 passes in camp they knew he was special. It was simply a statement that none of the top 4 QB's this year have shown that yet. As I said it is up to them on what they do in the future. The only one they said will have trouble with everything is Matt because he knows most everything you can be taught but he is bad at the one thing you can't be taught, arm strength.
    But thats still a silly statement. I mean who would have thought that Brady had the physical ability to be a potential HoFer? Dan Marino was the last taken, so obviously people weren't saying he had the physical abilities.

    John Elway is an exception. He was the most sought after HS player in the nation before going to college. Elway was then the most sought after player when coming out of college... and to this DAY.. STILL has the highest rating of ANY Player to come out of college (as far as scouting ratings). So to say that no one shows anything like Elway did, I don't think thats exactly rocket science.

    I don't think Matt knows most you can teach a QB, and I certainly don't think his arm strength is too weak to succeed in the NFL. I think the pick that is going to be the biggest failure is Young. He's never goign to make a NFL QB. There were reasons he couldn't play from center in college. They had to redo the offensive system to make it SHOT-GUN only for Young..becaues he could NOT run the offense from center. They jut wanted him on the field because of his athletic ability. Thats great in college when one player can make that kind of difference. NOT so much in the NFL. He'll never make a NFL QB.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhns
    I recommend that you watch again because they did say that. They also said they see Young as the strongest possibility of being something special because of his athleticism.
    Your right they did say that. Don't get mad

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!!
    I'm not sure. Because of other 1st round picks, coming in and taking the spot on a winning teams, I would expect Cutler to start if Jake goes down.
    That would be a tought call in first weeks of season. I would expect him to do so if we were down. or past week 2.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhns
    I recommend that you watch again because they did say that. They also said they see Young as the strongest possibility of being something special because of his athleticism.
    They are certainly welcome to their opinion.. but I've heard MANY people in the know, say exactly the opposite about Young. But I guess they were saying the same thing about Vick and his athleticism. Young doesn't have Vick's kind of athleticism, nor his arm strength.. so we'll have to see if he can learn to read a defense (which VIck still can't do) or learn to play from under center.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!!
    But thats still a silly statement. I mean who would have thought that Brady had the physical ability to be a potential HoFer? Dan Marino was the last taken, so obviously people weren't saying he had the physical abilities.

    John Elway is an exception. He was the most sought after HS player in the nation before going to college. Elway was then the most sought after player when coming out of college... and to this DAY.. STILL has the highest rating of ANY Player to come out of college (as far as scouting ratings). So to say that no one shows anything like Elway did, I don't think thats exactly rocket science.

    I don't think Matt knows most you can teach a QB, and I certainly don't think his arm strength is too weak to succeed in the NFL. I think the pick that is going to be the biggest failure is Young. He's never goign to make a NFL QB. There were reasons he couldn't play from center in college. They had to redo the offensive system to make it SHOT-GUN only for Young..becaues he could NOT run the offense from center. They jut wanted him on the field because of his athletic ability. Thats great in college when one player can make that kind of difference. NOT so much in the NFL. He'll never make a NFL QB.
    They didn't exactly rule out that they won't turn out like a Brady or even Elway type QB. They just said they haven't shown it thus far. Not really silly to say they don't look like greats right now. I'm sure it was simply an observation they made. When they said it about Cutler though they kept saying stuff about the rumor of him struggling in camp which I don't even know if it was true. All the "experts" also have different opinions on all the QB's.

    Matt does not have good arm strength. He will probably do good in the NFL but his completion percentages where horrible in college on throws over 15 yards. I don't remember what the exact numbers where but they even surprised me when they stated them last night. Matt also ran a pro style offense in college and has shown that he understands a lot of the QB postition. The only thing he really needs to learn for the NFL is the speed of the game and the difference in pro defenses compared to college. What I meant by he knows most of the stuff to be an NFL QB is the stuff like how to drop and stay poised in the pocket. He also has a pretty good release of the ball and can make progressions and look over the field. He is by far right now the most NFL ready QB that came out of the draft. I just don't think he will be the best in the long run of the top 4 that came out.

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